Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to take this opportunity to say some positive things about the budget address and particularly the capital projects in my constituency and perhaps end on a note of constructive criticism.

Mr. Speaker, I want to acknowledge the extraordinary efforts that were undertaken to replace the Apex School after the loss by fire last year and thank Mr. Nerysoo and Mr. Morin, in particular, for the prompt work that was done to bring joy to the hearts of those students in Apex, who now see their new school closed in and undoubtedly ready for this coming fall. I also want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I am very pleased that money has been put in place and a commitment made to continue planning a new regional hospital in the Baffin region.

Just this morning, we heard concerns about the problems of mental patients wandering the streets of Iqaluit, a danger to themselves and sometimes other people. That is one of the many issues, along with chronic care, that I hope will be dealt with as we plan this new regional health facility. I note that a recent meeting of the health board outlined a total of 10,828 outpatient visits to that very busy hospital in the past year and 4,138 patient days. The hospital is very pressed to meet these needs, and there is also a need to plan it so we can repatriate services to the north as is planned in the Keewatin, and has been successfully completed with the Stanton Yellowknife Hospital.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to note the modest museum addition in the capital plan for the coming year and thank the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment for putting the necessary heritage policies in place to ensure that these capital monies will be spent equitably and in a logical manner throughout the Northwest Territories. It is a major issue for the dedicated museum society in Iqaluit that artifacts from the region and the community be repatriated as are envisaged by the Inuit land claim. I know this new policy will also allow for contributions to other communities that wish to preserve their heritage in future as well.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to note that there is money for a community hall in Iqaluit in the budget for the coming year. I know there are some people who think that Iqaluit has everything, but I want to remind the Members of this House that it is one of the few communities in the Northwest Territories, and the only community in the Baffin region, that does not have a community hall. The citizens use a very crowded and worn out Anglican Church parish hall, which is simply not safe nor adequate any longer for Christmas activities. So, I am very pleased that there has been a modest $700,000 set aside in the coming year's budget to build what will be a very modest community hall. I know I will be able to work with the advisory committee and the municipal administrator in Iqaluit, which Mr. Todd will soon be appointing, so we can find a good site and a good, efficient design/build approach so we can maximize that $700,000 available and get on with this long sought dream of my constituents of actually having a community hall. They can have feasts, square dances and enjoy Christmas and other festive events as other communities do.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to say how pleased I am -- and this is more praise for Mr. Todd -- with the commitments that are in this budget and in future years' budget to improve the Iqaluit harbour in the coming year. I have probably spent more time talking about the issue of the tide, the rocks and the beach improvements in my dozen or so years in this House than any other issue. It is a matter of pressing concern to my hunting constituents. I want to note that we have made great progress in providing safer shelter for small boat owners. I am very happy that this issue has been recognized as an important priority, not just in my constituency, but in other communities in the sea coast regions.

Mr. Speaker, I said I had a note of constructive criticism in commenting on this capital budget address. I want to talk about Mr. Pollard's statement that our cost-shared programs for new housing are effectively reduced with the federal decreases in social housing funding from $43 million a year in 1991-92 to only $3 million a year and that this will mean, in effect, that our cost-shared program for new housing is effectively reduced from 372 housing units per year to just 14. Mr. Speaker, I believe that this is a major crisis. I believe this is the first priority for this Legislature and this government to deal with. I know that major efforts are being made to deal with this problem and that we will count on the good offices of some of our Members, in particular, to influence the new federal government to do the right thing and fix up this injustice to the people of the Northwest Territories. We must not lose sight of the basic fundamental issues. Housing is a major issue for the people of the Northwest Territories. Education is a major issue. Social issues, like the wages of alcohol and drug workers, like fetal alcohol effects and syndrome, are major issues. I can't help but note that, although the Minister's address seems to emphasize the crisis that we have in housing, this same government is presenting a supplementary estimate to this House to fund a northern Work Place Commission to a tune of $1.8 million over two years. Who wants this commission? Who asked for it? Who supports it? Was this dreamed up by the bureaucracy? Was it designed around the very able public servant whose former job, as head of the policy & planning secretariat, has dried up?

Mr. Speaker, I know we are to get a detailed briefing later this session. But I, for one -- from everything I've seen -- think that this Work Place Commission, in these hard financial times with the pressing social and education issues we have to deal with now, is an expensive mistake if it is allowed to go ahead. I think it bears no relation whatsoever to the political priorities of the people of the Northwest Territories and of this Assembly. Furthermore, the timing is terrible. It will be tabled in the dying days of this Assembly, in 1995. It will be a dead issue in this Assembly and I question the credibility it might enjoy with a new government.

I think that spending almost $2 million on a commission led by capable, but central agency bureaucrats with very little experience outside Yellowknife, demonstrates a failure to understand the political priorities and realities of today. At a time when we face major crises in housing and in social issues, it is completely incomprehensible to me why our government would, in effect, borrow money to study the northern work place and to cover many issues like pay equity which have already been the subject of considerable study and expense.

The same can be said of affirmative action.

I find it especially ironic that one of the subjects of study by this $2 million commission is wage parity and wage equity. Yet, a special committee of this Assembly, formed to demonstrate the Assembly's commitment to social issues, recommended early on that this government make it a priority to deal with the inadequate wages of alcohol and drug workers. One estimate presented to this House earlier on, interestingly enough, was that the whole issue of alcohol and drug workers' wages could be dealt with through the expenditure of approximately $1.7 million, just about the cost of the two years for the northern work place commission.

I have to ask myself how, as the elected representative of a community that is grappling with alcohol problems, I explain to the director of the Upassuraakut Centre in Iqaluit -- who can't hire or keep staff at the wage scale now in place and who is trying to struggle with these alcohol problems with the support of a local board -- that the Government of the Northwest Territories has been able to identify funds to send a Yellowknife bureaucrat around the territories asking about the northern work place, but can't identify monies to bring up the wages of alcohol and drug workers so the job is more attractive than a water truck driver's helper in Iqaluit.

Mr. Speaker, this is my comment on the budget address. In these times of very scarce resources, I think a very close look should be taken at the priority of studying an area of federal jurisdiction and producing a report that won't even see the end of the life of this Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, I certainly have some very positive things to say about the capital budget, about the improved planning process, about the efforts to ensure that the monies spent give maximum northern employment and maximum northern economic benefits, but I do feel that I must end with a note of caution. In these tough times, with these very pressing issues, I think the priority of this particular initiative must be carefully reviewed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. Item 9, replies to budget address. Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Lewis' Reply

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you know, for the past six years I have usually been the only Member to reply to the budget address. In fact, for the first four years, Mr. Speaker -- you will recall this as you were Finance Minister -- I was the only Member to make a reply. I'm very happy to see that there are many Members who are now making ready use of this item on our order paper. This, after all, is the budget session and we should be looking at the budget address critically.

Acting the role of a critic, Mr. Speaker, is one of the easiest jobs of government. It is very easy to criticize. It is nearly always possible to find something wrong with what government does. I recall, Mr. Speaker, you reminding me of that in my responses to your address when you were Finance Minister. I started with all kinds of glowing things and never explained what it was all about. You ended up getting a long string of critical comments. Although some of the comments I have today, Mr. Speaker, will seem critical, overall I am pleased with this very large capital program. It fulfils obvious needs and injects money into our economy during very difficult times.

My first criticism is of the phrase which says, "building infrastructure through the capital program and the provision of training, business and employment opportunities are of equal importance." Of course, Mr. Speaker, there are many economic spin-offs from a capital program, but we shouldn't get too carried away with ourselves. There is a primary objective. That objective is to get things built. That is the primary objective of any capital program. Everything else relates to it, but is not equal to it.

At one time, when the capital program was a cut and dried exercise, the only consideration in capital was to get works built on time and within budget. Times, however, have changed. Today we pay premiums for local involvement, local business opportunities and training. That adds considerably to the costs of each capital project.

In an age of free trade and fierce competition between different sectors, we may not be able to conduct a protected capital program for a long time into the future and keep the goodwill of all our neighbours in this great country of ours. Establishing new ground rules for our capital program to include employment, training and business means the government is obliged to develop some value for money criteria so you know exactly what you're getting for your money, in addition to just the building that you've acquired money to build.

The same thing applies to the increasing use of negotiated contracts. I said how important it is for the government to become less interventionist and less involved in people's lives. Negotiated contracts are classic cases of government manipulation to avoid the competition of the marketplace. When open tendering does not take place, there is no opportunity to get the best value for money. Unlike some of my colleagues, I believe negotiated contracts must be handled very, very carefully.

The message to the public on the issue of negotiated contracts is this: those in power will negotiate with those they want to negotiate with and they will not negotiate a contract with those they don't wish to negotiate. There is no system in place to determine when or where it is appropriate to negotiate a contract. It depends entirely upon the wishes of those in power. Power, as we all know, is a very, very sensitive and dangerous thing if it is not exercised with great responsibility.

Agreed.

There is no basis for it in some societies and it is contrary to the convention that contracts be awarded on the basis of competition and value for money.

Another way in which the government avoids testing the marketplace to get the best value for money is through proposal calls. This happens less in the capital program than in the O and M program. But, it is one more indication of a government not prepared to allow competitive bidding to take place. Yet, this is the only system which provides governments with an objective system for purchasing contract services. It means the government will search out opportunities to avoid giving work to companies which have proven they can perform well, time and time again, and hope they can find new competitors who will achieve the same kind of status, over a longer period of time.

Mr. Speaker, I was amazed to find last week that there are Members in the Assembly who want to make decisions about capital projects, really political decisions. Last week we had the example of ordinary Members asking that the road program be re-examined for the umpteenth time. Every objective criteria for the establishment of the road program was explained in great detail by the Department of Transport staff, yet for some reason we were not prepared to accept the story we were told several times and have asked that we re-examine it again.

The idea that every department treats the capital program like butter, which must be spread equally and evenly along the piece of bread, makes little sense. We have to retain the maximum amount of objectivity so that capital is allocated on the basis of real need and priority, not because something is nice to have or because someone says they want to have it.

I agree with the emphasis the government has placed -- and this is where I get to be flowery now -- on housing, and on training and education facilities. To make something a priority, however, is meaningless unless it is reflected in the budget. To simply hold out hope that the federal government will come to the rescue, is not a responsible approach and makes stating priorities a little bit hollow because we should put our money where our mouth is.

What is very commendable in this budget is the commitment to northern contracts. I'm sure our Members are pleased that 80 per cent of the dollar value of the contracts has gone to northerners. Awarding contracts on northern preference, again, Mr. Speaker, is a risky business and we may have a limited number of years ahead of us where we will be able to do this without being challenged by other jurisdictions. We should be careful how we move.

I'm also pleased to see the government continue with the experiment to present the capital budget in the fall session. This has been talked about for as long as I can remember, but never acted upon. The current government is to be congratulated on taking this bold step which other governments avoided for a long period of time. I'm sure that over the next two years, the full value of dealing with a capital budget in the fall will be realized and will become a permanent part of our budgetary procedure.

I have one comment, Mr. Speaker, on roads. There can be no doubt that, using all objective criteria, the highway from Yellowknife to Providence has the highest utilization. It also has the most wear and tear, and the highest accident rates. I'm happy to see the Minister has decided that would be a priority in the capital program. In fixing the road from Yellowknife to Edzo, thought should be given, Mr. Speaker, and I know this may not be easy to achieve, but we have one of the biggest lakes in North America sitting right next to us and it's almost inaccessible. There must be some way in the planning of government to find ways of making that lake

accessible to the 10,000 vehicles that come up that road and would like to find some way of getting into that lake.

I should also state, Mr. Speaker, that the extension of the Ingraham Trail to MacKay Lake, may seem to some people like a road to nowhere, but that road, if it were to be initiated as the commencement of a road to Coppermine, would provide access to a very large number of deposits of that area of great interest to the mining industry and to the people of the Northwest Territories, who see the mining sector as having great potential for our economy, especially in the western Arctic. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Item 9, replies to budget address. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mrs. Marie-Jewell's Reply

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, normally it's not my practice to reply to the budget address, since I have been a Member of the Standing Committee on Finance. I do have an advantage with regards to any budget that is presented in this House because of being a Member. However, Mr. Speaker, I feel that I do have to make a few comments known, because I am concerned as a Member.

I am concerned that this budget is not distributed in an equitable and fair manner. I believe that is what is causing some of the concerns of Members toward this government.

I am particularly concerned with the millions of dollars spent in transportation and that there is nothing reflected in the government budget to address my constituency's transportation needs. It's taken for granted that we have a highway and it's also taken for granted, because our highway is safe, that it is okay to keep our highway as is. I believe that's unfair.

This government started a program for chip seal to highways back in 1984 and they never continued even though $20 million is going into the region. I have to stress how none of it is going into Fort Smith.

Certainly, Members on this side of the House will commend the government for focusing on the highway between Providence and Yellowknife. Naturally, that highway would be highly used because it is going to be paved. When a person can have the choice of travelling over a paved highway versus a gravelled highway, what choice do they take? I don't even need to answer that, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that this inequity and this unfairness of distribution of capital funding, particularly in transportation, has to be addressed, but I have confidence in the Minister of Transportation to address this inequity and I'm confident that I will not see such an inequity in the future.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to address the excess power that we have in Fort Smith. There's excess power from the Taltson Dam, which I think could be utilized in a more effective manner. I believe that many of the government buildings, which are operated by fuel, can probably be modified to provide heat through electricity. I believe that this would save the government thousands of dollars. However, I don't believe that this issue is being looked at.

I do want to thank the government and, particularly, the Minister of Education, who is finally going to address our 35 year old school. I'm very grateful that consideration toward renovations for the school are going to be considered because this school is old. I support the idea that it is structurally sound but it certainly has to be looked at. There are many areas in that school that are causing problems, particularly the quality of the air.

I'm further grateful that government has placed the headquarters of Arctic College, once again, back into Fort Smith. I believe that is a good decision, even though it is not going into Yellowknife, and that it can serve all the students just as effectively as it did in Yellowknife. I'm grateful for the headquarters being moved back.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the tanker base, I believe we have to ensure that the many opportunities that are going to be available through that tanker base are taken advantage of. I'm placing my confidence in the Minister of Education to ensure that training opportunities are made available. However, I am somewhat concerned that this process is taking longer than we had initially anticipated and I will be pursuing this further with the government.

In addition, Mr. Speaker, on the academic college building, not only myself and my constituents are grateful to the government for addressing this particular building, but I'm sure many students who go to the Thebacha Campus of Arctic College are grateful. I believe that this building is well overdue. I thank the government for taking the initiative to address this building which has been in the capital plan for the past six years. It has been delayed, but we are grateful that this facility is finally coming to fruition. I am more so grateful to the Minister of Public Works, who has been in Fort Smith to encourage local contractors to work together. There is no doubt that the local contractors are taking on such a challenge. I am very happy to recognize that many of these dollars that will be spent through the academic building, which would have flowed out of Fort Smith, will not only stay in the north but, more importantly, will stay in my constituency, particularly the dollars that are going to be spent on jobs. All we hear, as politicians, is the need for jobs and I agree with people who have been telling us that there is a lack of jobs in our economy today. We, as a Legislative Assembly, have to make every effort to create these jobs and make sure these jobs that are created are taken up by northerners. I believe that this initiative by the Minister of Public Works will take full advantage of such an opportunity. I know my constituency has the local expertise to provide the manpower necessary. I am confident that the facility will be built with a high percentage of local content.

Mr. Speaker, I want to address one concern that I still have of the government. I addressed that in my reply to the Commissioner's address last year. However, it seems that I should address it, with regards to this capital budget. It is with regards to the housing of the Northwest Territories. I am very concerned that we do not have enough funding to provide housing for the Northwest Territories, that we do not have the commitment from the federal government to provide as much housing as is needed in the Northwest Territories. I am more concerned, as a native person that, I believe, the Government of Canada is neglecting some of the fiduciary responsibilities to aboriginal people. I believe this government has to continue to stress such a responsibility to the Government of Canada which has to be fulfilled.

I also want to express concern with regards to the territorial housing strategy. I believe the implementation is in a mess. I want to quote from December 3, when I asked one of the Ministers, "How are these houses in our constituency -- that are government houses -- going to be disposed?" On December 3, the previous Minister of Personnel at the time, who was Mr. Kakfwi, had responded to me in this House and stated, "The Member for Thebacha asked me when the houses being considered for sale in Fort Smith will be going to the real estate agencies. Staff houses that are considered for sale in Fort Smith will be going to the real estate agencies beginning January 1993, a maximum of five to ten units will be on the market at any one time. Thank you." As of this date, not one unit is on the local market.

In response to my question to the Minister this afternoon, now the Minister of Public Works has the responsibility to straighten out this mess, which I think is unfair. However, the Minister stated that there are no houses on the market. These houses may now be offered to the housing corporation. All the government has done is taken the government houses, given them either to the college or to the housing corporation and taken some of the financial costs and responsibility and transferred them to other departments, as opposed to getting out of housing. That was the intent of the housing strategy -- to get out of government housing. They are not doing that, whether or not they recognize it. That is why I say it is in a mess.

Mr. Speaker, one of my colleagues had asked whether or not government housing was for sale, whether Cabinet Ministers were offered their housing units at appraised value. The answer was yes, Cabinet Ministers were offered housing. I recall totally that there was a policy in the Executive Council...unless the policy has been modified or amended to date, the previous policy did not allow for Cabinet Ministers to purchase housing. If it did not allow for them to purchase houses, then why were they even given the opportunity to purchases houses? That is another reason why I say the housing strategy is in a mess. I certainly would encourage this government to look at the mess they have and try to clean it up, because it can probably bring in revenue which they initially didn't anticipate. I do not believe we would be looking at such a financial deficit.

However, Mr. Speaker, I do want to say, overall, that I know this government has made a considerable effort with regard to decentralization, bringing as many jobs in the north that they have created to stay in the north, and I commend them for that. However, I believe that we also, at the same time, have to be careful that they are doing it in a fair and equitable manner. That is the focal point that I want in my reply to the budget address. All we are asking you -- with our dollars that you are receiving -- is to be fair in the way you distribute it. I do not believe that is much to ask. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Item 9, replies to budget address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions to present our report on the elimination of the Highway Transport Board.

On September 7, 1993, the Minister of Transportation appeared before the committee with a proposal to eliminate the NWT Highway Transport Board. This would be accomplished by repealing the Public Service Vehicles Act and incorporating some of its provisions into the Motor Vehicles Act.

Observations And Recommendations

The committee recognizes that, with the deregulation of Canada's transportation industry, the Highway Transport Board's role has been greatly reduced. According to the Department of Transportation, eliminating the board will save approximately $30,000 per year and will allow the department's motor vehicles division to manage all aspects of transportation regulation in the Northwest Territories.

As well, in keeping with the spirit of deregulation, this initiative should help foster healthy competition in the Northwest Territories' transport industry.

We also recognize that the NWT Motor Transport Association supports the Minister's initiative.

We support the Minister's proposal to eliminate the Highway Transport Board. We do have some recommendations and we assume the enabling legislation, to be tabled by the Minister, will deal with them adequately.

Recommendation 1

The Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions recommends that fees charged by the Highway Transport Board should be transferred into the Motor Vehicle Act fee schedule, unchanged.

With the elimination of the board, and the transfer of the licensing function for the motor vehicles division, an adjudicator position would be created to hear appeals from decisions by the registrar of motor vehicles. However, the committee has no information regarding the nature of this position, to whom the adjudicator will report and whether the position will be a permanent position within the government, a contract position or an addition of responsibilities to an existing position.

Recommendation 2

The standing committee further recommends that, prior to the establishment of a position of adjudicator, the Minister must clarify and justify the nature of such a position.

Recommendation 3

Prior to any legislative changes, the Minister must provide the Legislative Assembly with more detail regarding the financial effect of eliminating the board.

Recommendation 4

To enable the Minister to respond to these recommendations, in accordance with rule 93(5), the Minister shall table a comprehensive response to this report.

The committee would like to thank the Minister of Transportation and his officials for their presentation and their response to committee Members' questions and concerns.

Motion To Receive Committee Report 8-12(4) And Move To Committee Of The Whole, Carried

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, that the report of the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions, on the elimination of the Highway Transport Board be received and moved into committee of the whole for consideration. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Your motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 13, tabling of documents. Madam Premier.

I wish to table, Tabled Document 32-12(4), minister/deputy minister travel for the period November, 1991 to October 15, 1993.

Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Minister's Statement 3-12(4), Sessional Statement; Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1994-95; Committee Report 1-12(4), Special Committee on Health and Social Services Final Report;

Committee Report 3-12(4), Review of the 1994-95 Capital Estimates; Committee Report 7-12(4), Standing Committee on Public Accounts Report on the Committee Review of DeLury and Associates Limited Contracts; and, Tabled Document 11-12(4), Report from the Fort Providence/Cambridge Bay Strategic Planning Workshops, with Mr. Pudluk in the chair.

Good afternoon. I call this committee to order. What is the wish of the committee this afternoon? Member for Thebacha.

We would like to go home for supper if we are going to come back at 7:00 pm. Mr. Chairman, we just would like to continue on with the Special Committee on Health and Social Services final report.

Does the committee agree?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Report 1-12(4), Talking And Working Together

Thank you. We are working on the Special Committee on Health and Social Services report, page 32. Who wishes to start the speech? Mr. Koe.

What We Recommend

Mahsi. Mr. Chairman, this is what we recommend in areas related specifically to elders. The involvement of respected elders in community-based counselling programs should be encouraged and promoted. It is important that those who want to contribute in this way are able to remain in the community. The focus of health and social services for our elders should, therefore, change from institutions and towards community and home-based care.

As part of this process of assisting elders to remain in their communities, the provision of local palliative care should be encouraged wherever possible. Since palliative care may be provided in the home, steps should be taken to ensure that our elders enjoy decent housing.

Elders should also be assisted in maintaining their financial independence. The financial exploitation of elders is unacceptable. Ways must be found to help them retain greater control over the money they receive from income assistance programs. Specific measures could include a different payment schedule, the use of vouchers instead of cash, plus money management and budgeting programs.

The abuse of elders in our society is totally unacceptable. They have made an important contribution to the community during their lives. It is time for the community to give something back in return. What could be more meaningful than a greater sense of personal security? We understand the proposed Guardianship and Trusteeship Act includes an adult protection clause, which allows granting of temporary

guardianship for elders who are being abused. We recommend and support prompt passage of such legislation.

A more extensive and active support system is required to help abused elders find information and assistance. This support can be provided in two ways. The first is by supporting the development of local and regional self-help groups for seniors. The second way is for the government and such groups to make it easier for elders to find out about the services available to them. This could be done by designating someone within government as a contact person on elders' issues. At the same time, elders could be provided with a way in which they could obtain information, answers and assistance.

Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommend that a government contact person on programs for elders should be designated and provided with a 1-800 telephone line, so that elders have direct access to a source of information and help.

Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we were given the basic recommendation for the involvement of respected elders in community-based counselling programs and the promotion of the use of the skills of our elders, I couldn't help noticing that when we get into the recommendations, there is not very much about what use these people are. It is all to do with what kind of help they can get, what kind of access they can get to people who can help them out and the problem of abuse, et cetera. In fact, nearly all the recommendations seem to treat elders as if they are only victims. I appreciate that the report has pointed out that we may be a bit hypocritical in the Northwest Territories, in that we always talk about the tremendous respect for elders and how highly we esteem them, yet if you look at the records, especially of many of the community meetings, it is clear that there is abuse and this group contains people that have to be protected. There is an awful lot of waste too. I've had people make the comment that elders are trundled out into the open when they are needed, when we need to show the public how much we think of these people, then we make a show of them. There is a degree of hypocrisy there, sometimes. For the most part, it seems to me elders are ignored.

Although this particular recommendation talks about making help available to elders who need it, it doesn't really follow from the paragraphs which talk about the involvement of respected elders in community-based programs. Many of them do have a role. Not more than six months ago, I was in Iqaluit and a respected elder made this point to me, one of the biggest problems that young people face in our communities is they don't have anybody to talk to. They can't talk to their peers, they can't talk to their teachers, and they can't talk with their parents. There doesn't seem to be anybody that you can go to and talk, with some degree of confidence, to get help.

It is seen as a gap. There are older people who have all kinds of knowledge and wisdom, and so on, and yet, we don't seem to find ways of using their abilities. Although I'm not speaking against any particular recommendation -- which I welcome by the way, the idea that we do have an enthused group of people who have too long been ignored and undervalued -- we should also look at other ways in which older people can have a useful life. Just because you are 65, doesn't mean that you should just be pushed in a corner and brought out when people figure you can help the community look good.

I welcome the idea of the recognition of the need to assist those people who are abused. But, I think we should also find some way of recognizing that you just don't throw people on the dump heap because they aren't as active or physically strong as they were at one time. Mr. Chairman, every single person in this room -- if they are lucky and follow a good life -- will become old one day. That's what is going to happen to us all. You wouldn't want to think that when you reached the age of 60 or 65 that suddenly, you have no value, no use and that you are thrown upon the waste heap and forgotten about. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Dent, do you want to respond to Mr. Lewis' comments?