Thank you. Mr. Minister.

My understanding of "vision" in Inuktitut means looking ahead. Basically, that is what I am trying to do. When we look at the transportation strategy which was done in 1989 by the former Minister, Mr. Wray, it was an extremely valuable exercise and it was a very costly one. All I am suggesting is that we just bring it up to 1993 realities. I feel it was somewhat unrealistic in some of the objectives it was trying to accomplish. When they used the word "vision" I think they were looking 20 years down the road. I am not suggesting for one minute that that is something we should not be trying to look ahead to, however, we have to look at the current fiscal realities of the federal government. This NWT transportation strategy was clearly designed as a joint initiative which would be jointly funded by both the territorial and federal governments. I believe, at the time, it was somewhere around $500 million over a ten year period where both the territorial and federal governments would contribute $25 million each.

What I am suggesting in the update of this strategy is to take what we have and quickly bring it up to date. Most of it can be done in-house. Bring about some more accurate estimates of the costs of doing some of the things which have to be done, and with a minimal amount of resources which I understand are going to be done from within, I think we can bring a realistic, achievable document that shows us in the next five or ten years what we can realistically accomplish that can continue to give us the 20 year vision that was previously there in an ideal world. The bottom line in any transportation initiative, whatever we do, requires significant federal government financial contributions.

What I am trying to accomplish over the next two or three months is a document which I can take to whoever the new federal government is going to be and try to negotiate and follow-up on what previous Ministers of Transportation have already done. Whether or not we can accomplish that, I do not know, but we certainly need to have a document which says this is what we think we can realistically accomplish. We need more accurate financial projections of what it is going to cost. More importantly, to me anyway, I need to make sure the update is reflective of this House. As I said earlier, the ordinary Members and the stakeholders will be involved in this update. Thank you. It will not be a costly exercise.

Thank you. Mr. Whitford.

Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the previous thrust of the transportation strategy was into major road development in the Mackenzie Valley and in the western Arctic. There was some reference to Keewatin and highways, which I think was unrealistic. There is clearly a thrust within the overall NWT strategy to look at marine infrastructure, particularly in the eastern Arctic, because it is severely lacking that. So in simple terms, that is where the basic thrust was. The need for some small in-community roads that lead to fishing holes that could be used both locally and for tourist operations, whether it would be the Sylvia Grinnel in Iqaluit or Diana River in Rankin Inlet, et cetera, has been raised on a number of occasions by the chairman. What I have asked the department to do is take a hard look at that.

There is some money that was previously allocated in the budget under previous Ministers, but I am not sure it was adequate. I think we have to give some consideration to what we might call "recreational/community road infrastructure." I do not have any definitive numbers here because it would be part of the capital process. The determination of whether it is a priority within the capital process would be by the municipalities, but certainly as a department we are looking at it. As part of the overall NWT strategy, we are looking at the larger highway in the Mackenzie Valley, marine transportation, et cetera. We are talking significant dollars here.

General comments. Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

If I can address the first question which was asked. I would like to go back to the community roads. We are in the process of, based upon the initiative taken and the request taken by the Standing Committee on Finance, trying to draft a community type agreement with municipalities as to how these roads can be built, et cetera. It is important to clear that up. I agree with the honourable Member and I appreciate his comments that there should be more money in that particular function and I will look forward to his support when I bring it forward in the standing committee, which I am sure I will get.

On the issue of the spills and containment, I understand after the situation which took place at the ferry in the Fort Providence area, that the department has taken steps to improve the equipment and, in particular, the training with respect to oil spills. They have also increased the regulations to ensure the carriers meet with the compliancies of the act. I will be bringing forward, probably this week or next week, the annual report for 1992 on the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act. This will spell out some of the changes which are necessary and the procedures that will take place to avoid the situation which took place earlier last year. There is a recognition of the importance in the environment. With the enormity of the issues in Scotland and in Alaska over the last two or three years, there is clearly a recognition by this department and this government that while our problems maybe small ones, they could be big ones, and therefore we have to make sure we have the proper rules and compliance in place. I am confident we are moving in that direction. There is no question, as Mr. Whitford has said, we certainly need to improve upon our fast reaction equipment and training and that is what we are endeavouring to do at the present time.

It is my understanding, that there has been an improvement in the equipment availability at the ferry and also some additional training done with the staff or the contractors who run that operation.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is all well and good to talk about what our government can do with regard to environmental protection and marine infrastructure, but I think the federal government has been conspicuous by its absence in some respects in the Northwest Territories. I am particularly referring to areas such as the small crafts harbours program of the Government of Canada, the Ministry of Transport, which has spent tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on small harbour improvement in the most unlikely places, such as freshwater lakes where there is primarily recreational use. I think it has been very politically appealing to the Government of Canada. Unfortunately, by and large they have overlooked the Northwest Territories, where our people are dependent upon the marine economy where the water is a critical transportation system and also a critical means of subsistence harvesting. All of which I know the Minister understands.

I would like to ask what headway has been made with getting the federal government, through the small crafts harbours program, to join with our government in providing for these tremendous needs that we have for marine infrastructure? Have there been any successes to date and will it be an area the Minister will be pursuing? Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, let me assure the honourable Member we are. I could say there is ongoing discussions and continuing dialogue but that sounds like a load of bureaucratic mumbo jumbo. The reality is that everyone is experiencing tough financial times. We have to be able to argue our point aggressively to seek our share of the pie. With respect to the small crafts harbours program, as the honourable Member knows, I am a strong advocate of that, it does bring about some support for the small fishermen. Discussions were under way last week with the Coast Guard in Yellowknife by the deputy minister in an effort to try and get

them to see why this infrastructure is important to fishermen and people who use it as tour operators.

To date, to be candid, we have not been very successful. As far as I can determine, my deputy tells me that one of the successes we have had is the Pelly Bay situation, where the hydrographic work was done there. We have upgraded two barge landing sites in Spence Bay and Gjoa Haven. The Coast Guard paid for these expenditures. I want to assure the honourable Member that I intend to address this particular financial expenditure again. We will have continued discussions with Transport Canada and the Coast Guard, but I also want to make it part of the transportation update and strategy because it was not as well laid out and explained, when I read the strategy, as I would have liked. I want to assure him that this kind of infrastructure is a priority in my eyes, particularly as it relates to the more isolated communities that are not on highways and road systems. Our success to date has not been particularly satisfying. Hopefully, in negotiations and in discussions with the appropriate political people, we will be more successful.

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate those comments. Having banged my personal pointed little head against the wall for many years on this small crafts harbour program, I do not underestimate the task before the Minister in trying to liberate some of this money, but I do wish him well. I think that it is a national program and we should demand our fair share of the resources. It is an issue in my riding.

I have talked at length in this House about special problems in Frobisher Bay with the tide and the difficulties of accessing the beach. I am grateful for the work which has been done by the department, to improve the beach in Iqaluit in recent years. I am very impressed with the method of community consultation and the way they have worked with the town and HTA. I am looking forward to doing a little more work again this summer. I think we could stretch our precious dollars so much farther if we could do so in partnership with the Government of Canada.

I would also like to ask the Minister about bigger issues than the small harbours. I think the Minister also acknowledges that there is also a need for major marine facilities. We really do not have anything in Nunavut, that I know of, except docks that have been built by the private sector, such as Nanisivik. Otherwise, the only good port facilities are either in Quebec, the Maritimes or in Greenland. Is improving our major marine infrastructure requirements also something that is being pursued? I believe there is an opportunity with the discussion of transportation infrastructure with the Government of Canada. It may be diminishing by the day as an election looms. I know there are discussions occurring on the work on the port and road at Coppermine. Are there also other major marine infrastructure requirements which the Minister has in mind, and that the department has identified, for which we should again pursue the federal government to do its part as a national program in cooperation with our government? Are there other large marine projects being pursued? Of course, I have one in mind quite close to home, but I know that Frobisher Bay is not the only major port where it could be done and improvement could be made. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Izok Lake project is a unique self-contained project. I do not see it as part of an overall strategy. I see that as a unique opportunity for Canada to get involved in a major mining venture that can bring significant economic benefits, not only to us as northerners, but to the rest of Canada. I do not see that as intervening in the other efforts we are doing across the territories.

Mr. Patterson is correct. We have put forward a proposal to the federal government as part of that $5 million strategy which Mazankowski talked about several months ago. Part of that proposal we put in was to look for some dollars to assist in major marine transportation and, in particular, Iqaluit was one that we were looking at as a major port area.

However, as Mr. Patterson said, we are in election mode, and who knows what is going to happen there. Negotiations or discussions are currently taking place between deputy to deputy. I am cynically optimistic. Is that a contradiction? I am not sure how these discussions will take place. We are, in fact, running out of time in the sense that we will be in full tilt into a federal election. That is going to have an impact because, as the honourable Member for Iqaluit has said, the responsibility lies for this infrastructure with the federal government.

As a new Minister, in looking at what this department has done under the previous Minister, they have done an admirable job in terms of trying to find, within existing resources, some of the marine infrastructure that is required. Not to the point of boredom, but I do want to say we have limited resources. This department has a $34 million capital budget. Nineteen million dollars goes to roads, airports, et cetera. Even though we do not have the direct jurisdiction for it, the department has done a reasonable job in trying to find money or run things more effectively which would bring about some of the infrastructure that is being required. There is very little marine infrastructure in the Baffin, as the honourable Member says, and also in the Keewatin area. There is reasonable marine infrastructure in the western area, but it still requires significant improvement.

It is my job and responsibility, along with the support of the people in this House, to put forward the appropriate proposals under the NWT strategy to seek the federal government's support for financing this. Otherwise, it will be done on a very ad hoc basis. In summary, we are trying, in this unique situation, to access some of this $500 million that was put forward by Mr. Mazankowski. We are, within the existing budget, endeavouring to do what little we can to bring up to grade, improve and build new marine infrastructure. We are going to, in the update of the NWT transportation strategy, ensure that marine infrastructure is as equally important as road infrastructure for several parts of the country. The responsibility will then be to, hopefully, negotiate an appropriate joint initiative with the federal government to put this in place.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I have indicated many times in the past three years, building a new road to facilitate all-terrain vehicles is very important in my region and in the region of the honourable Minister himself. More hunters are utilizing all-terrain vehicles to go hunting, especially in the summer.

As everyone knows, job opportunities are few in smaller communities and buying all-terrain vehicles is getting very expensive. So, when we talk about building a road to accommodate all-terrain vehicles, we are talking about economic development. Such roads would facilitate hunting, tourism and recreation. I know the honourable Minister does not speak for the other department, but perhaps when we build a road to accommodate all-terrain vehicles, maybe each department could get together. Renewable Resources, because we are talking about hunting, Economic Development because we are talking about tourism, and MACA because we are talking about recreation. Recreation is one of the healthier forms of life. I hope that the honourable Minister will make every effort to finalize the situation so we can build some roads.

We are not talking about large roads, we are talking about all-terrain vehicle roads. Mr. Chairman, when I travel to Gjoa Haven this is an issue. It is the same thing in Taloyoak, formerly known as Spence Bay and also in Pelly Bay. I have talked to the Minister privately and also in the House. I wonder if the Minister will consider this very seriously. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me assure the honourable Member that I agree. There is a need for a coordinated approach to these small roads within the communities because there could be not only just the need for

places to go to fish and hunt, in terms of people like ourselves, but there could also be the need for a coordinated effort with respect to tourism, whether it is a traditional camp or a site which tourists may want to visit. The approach of the department will be, through a coordinated effort, to ensure that it is not just roads going nowhere, it is roads going somewhere and for some purpose. I want to again assure him that I have instructed the department to look at the idea of the small community roads. We are developing a draft proposal, almost like a contribution agreement, where we would give some form of contribution to a municipality to build the kinds of roads which Mr. Ningark is talking about. That has not been finalized yet because there has to be some discussions with the ordinary Members. I am reasonably confident we will be able to bring forward a policy which will meet the kinds of concerns that Mr. Ningark and others have raised. I must caution that it is not a bottomless pit, we have to find the resources, and we will more than likely have to find them from within. I would see the determination of the need for these small roads being made in the capital exercise of the municipalities and then determining whether it is a priority or not. There are some limitations to what we can do and I look forward to, once we finalize the draft, discussing it with Members and in particular Mr. Ningark who alerted me to this issue several months ago. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Line by line. Mr. Gargan.