Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Erasmus, Mr. Ng, Ms. Thompson, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Todd, Mr. Arlooktoo, Mr. Dent, Mr. Evaloarjuk, and Mr. Barnabas.

Here are the results of the recorded vote. For the motion, three. Against the motion, three. Abstentions, ten. I will be voting in favour of defeating the motion to promote further discussion on the issue. The motion is defeated. I will now return to the main estimates. Community programs and services, operations and maintenance. On my list I have Mr. Erasmus.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just following on the line of my previous questioning, on the funding of the treatment centres. It is not clear, in my mind, how the funding is going to work for the occupancy part. I understand that the 50 percent core funding will be received monthly, but as far as the occupancy, I believe it is based on 80 percent occupancy of the treatment centre. If the treatment centre has 80 percent occupancy, it will receive its full amount of money? What would happen if, for example, in January, the treatment centre here in Yellowknife had 60 percent occupancy. How much of its money would it receive for that month?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, they would be receiving their monthly payment out of the 50 percent core funding, and 60 percent of what the per diems would have been. If they are at 60 percent occupancy, it would have been 60 percent of the per diems that they would have been entitled to. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, if the occupancy part is based on 80 percent, if you get 100 percent of your funding for 80 percent occupancy, then you should receive more than 60 percent of your funding if you are only 60 percent full. What I want to know is, how do they figure that out?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The per diem that has been worked out with each treatment centre is based on factoring in an occupancy of 80 percent, and reviewing what has historically been the contribution agreement. So therefore, the cost they need to operate as a centre.

What will then happen is 50 percent of what they need to operate as a facility will flow to them on a monthly basis from the department. The other money is being distributed to the bards. The bards will pay the treatment centre a per night fee for their program. If the target is 80 percent occupancy as a realistic number over the year, then on average the revenue will flow to the treatment centre on a per-bed basis, if they achieve over the year an 80 percent occupancy. Short of doing the math on the percentages, on a yearly basis a treatment centre will need to have an effective occupancy rate of 80 percent across the year in order to receive the total revenue that it receives today. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What happens if in one month, they are more than 80 percent full, if they are 95 percent full? Do they get more than the full amount they are eligible for that month?

The treatment centre will receive revenue on a per-bed basis. If they have an occupancy of 90 percent or 95 percent, then they will essentially be selling bed space in their program at that level of occupancy for the month. It is not so much more than they are entitled to. They set a bed rate which is equal to 50 percent of the revenue they need, and they will basically be selling space for the program if boards refer patients to them. They will essentially get what they need to operate based on the level of occupancy they have for that month. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What happens if the treatment centre here in Yellowknife is fully booked, but six people do not show up? What happens, do they get partially funded or anything for those six people who said they were going to come but did not show up?

Mr. Chairman, I cannot speak to the exact arrangements. I cannot recall them. But I do know for a treatment centre to be able to operate a viable program, there has to be guaranteed commitments made by the boards that refer patients. There has to be an arrangement for the fixed cost to be covered by the treatment centres, so they are protected against no-shows. Most of the treatment centres are moving towards a more continuous form of intake of patients, so the suggestion would not be they would be guaranteed for necessarily the full 28 or 35 day period. But I do not know exactly what the arrangements will be for each treatment centre. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ramsden talked about the need to have protection to ensure stability and all the rest of that kind of stuff, and they are going to figure out how much money. Well, I guess they already know how much money it costs to operate these centres. Is there going to be a pool of money for these centres which can only be used for the bed space in those centres, to ensure they can receive 100 percent of the money they require for operating?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, there will be no specific terms attached to that funding, because we want to give the Boards and the communities the flexibility to set their own priorities. Although we do recognize because of that, there may be some fallout to the residential treatment centres. For example, I know concerns have been raised there be more focus on mobile treatment or other community-based treatment with those alcohol and drug treatment dollars, that it may adversely impact on the Boards. We will be monitoring the occupancy levels very vigorously to ensure we are on top of what is happening with the treatment centres, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister is indicating this money can be used for other things other than the treatment centres. It is possible half of that money could go to mobile treatment and other things. Is this correct? If the communities wanted to do that, is this correct?