Thank you, Madam Chair. Here is one other example of why this whole co-operative partnership type of approach we have adapted in the amalgamation is critical. First of all, traditional knowledge is not really ours, as a government, to scrape it together and put it on the weigh-scale and figure out how much it weighs and whether it is important or it can be discarded. It is not really ours to do that with. As a government, we have come into this country and we have done a lot of things that have absolutely no regard for the people that were here in the first place. There have been many times when people have suggested our policies in the whole range of different areas, not only the scientific, have been a joke and have no basis in reality. Because we have never been here, we have never really dealt with the realities of here, we were in no position to make judgement until it became self-evident, to do the contrary is not right. The Member is pointing at that. Traditional knowledge, what is there we know and we have to go on the basis that as a government, as a scientific people born elsewhere from a different culture and a different value system, we have to accept First Nations have a body of knowledge going across all sectors of existing knowledge. Some of it is measurable, some of it is not so measurable. Some are, while they are not measurable, self-evident and can be accepted for what it is. What we have been encouraging is asking people not to spend so much time on discarding the whole thing or on discarding the immediate things they think are sceptical, but to try to help us embrace the concept and to find some ways of preparing ourselves so we use it as we know it and to welcome the traditional knowledge holders to work in partnership with us, so we will decide together what is useful, what is relevant, and how it should be used. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. I think the Minister has a good understanding of what traditional knowledge is. I appreciate what he is saying with his comments. There is a great body of knowledge amongst the aboriginal community, as he said, some is measurable, some is not measurable. From all of that, I kind of gather it is not all together yet. This is an evolving project. Traditional knowledge cannot be completely defined. Obviously there is no one scrutinizing or evaluating this outside of the two individuals. I am wondering who will be looking at this in the future? Who is going to make the decisions of how to apply this within government? Who will make the decisions of extending traditional knowledge throughout government?

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The policy is there. It is my job to advise the government on how we can implement and co-ordinate traditional knowledge across the governments. Within the government itself, there is a committee on traditional knowledge where each department has a co-ordinator assigned for traditional knowledge to this committee. Cabinet will be the ultimate accountable body for making decisions in regard to this policy.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Ootes.

The Minister certainly has a very good grasp of what traditional knowledge is and likely tremendous amount of experience. Could the Minister tell me if traditional concepts are based on spiritual assumptions?

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Kakfwi.

Madam Chair, perhaps an example would be useful. We had a TV ad where an elder said forest fires are natural because that is the way the creator made it. Some doubting Thomas phoned in and said, "it is absolutely unacceptable because the Dene are preaching religious beliefs. Therefore, you should not be propagating it in your TV commercials." I said, "I do not know, what I hear may be different from what you heard. I heard a Dene elder say the creator makes creation in a way forest fires are a natural occurrence." What does that have to do with religious or spiritual beliefs? The fact is it is a natural occurrence, that is the point. Once the point was made, there was a conversion of the doubting Thomas. I do not know if I could do it for every specific case. There was an example of what was seen to be.

I think sometimes we get into these debates and we get mixed up about spiritual versus religious. We get into debates about interpretation. I think the debates are welcomed. It leads to a challenge to develop and refine our definitions and our policies. There are some derogatory elements to some people's thinking I categorically reject. If somebody is suggesting I have nothing to say, I have nothing to offer, my thousands of years of existence on this land are worth absolutely nothing, I reject that. I do not think it is particularly conducive to working in partnership with everyone else to resolve the many issues that faces. I wanted to make the point, debate is healthy. We need to continue to work to try to clarify ways with dealing. In my view, religion has nothing to do with it. Once we start defining spiritual beliefs, in some cases it has everything to do with it and in some cases it does not. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Moving on down our list, I have Mr. Henry, Mr. Miltenberger and Mr. Roland. I will go to Mr. Miltenberger next. Just before I do, I want to mention I previously left the chair because I was planning to declare conflict on any items related to the Business Credit Corporation. I was not expecting it might be spread through a number of activities. I will ask the Members consideration if the Business Credit Corporation comes up other than under pages 11-14 and 11-23, I would just like you to give me the opportunity to absence myself from the chair before it comes up. Give me a little warning. Thank you. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to briefly go back to the issue of the staffing and affected employees. The Minister indicated there are a number of outstanding situations to resolve. My concern is: I know in the South Slave there are some people, especially at the senior level, who have been sitting there at full salary since last August. I wonder if the Minister could be more definitive in his time frame that these matters will be put to rest within a month or two months. In my opinion there is a significant cost, not only dollar cost, but there is frustration cost, an effect on the organization and such.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe we could have the morale result before the end of March. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Once again I can only speak for the South Slave Region. There is at least one staff that has a long, honourable job career with the former Department of Renewable Resources. I am hoping he will be treated honourably and all employees will be treated honourably, especially the ones who have served many years. I hope they will be given the chance to do what ever happens with dignity and understanding and compassion.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The expectation from myself as the Minister responsible, from the Premier, and Minister responsible for Personnel, the effective staff we have will be treated with all the respect that should be accorded to them. Every opportunity to keep them on, to give them the first opportunities for new positions created will be advanced. From the beginning, I have expressed full confidence in my senior management to carry it out. I have made it my position that I am not involved on these staffing issues. It is a senior management function to take care of the staff and I leave it under the hands of the deputy minister. I think the evidence is there to show we have gone to extraordinary lengths to do everything possible to take care of our staff in every way possible. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to switch to a different area under corporate management. I was wondering if the Minister could elaborate on information systems that provide access to remote sensing and geographic information systems. If he could elaborate on what kind of systems those are and the type of databases and who in the public and specifically in the private sector would be interested in the information?

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you. The section of our department that deals with remote sensing provides a service to different sectors. For instance, on wildlife habitat we do remote sensing to look at vegetation. For fire fighting, we do maps using remote sensing to deal with looking at the accumulated impact of previous fire seasons. We look at bison management, habitat, populations, different types of research. We look at vegetation, land use planning. There are a number of areas that require the use of the scientific maps and illustrations we produce. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Fourth question, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Given the vast distances and remoteness of the areas we are talking about, I think this is a very important area. I was wondering if the Minister could clarify for me, as a lay person, when we are talking about remote sensory, are we talking about aerial photography, use of satellite information, when you talk about doing all these things with habitat and looking at forests and bison?

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.