Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Kakfwi.

Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Could the Minister indicate to this committee how much it is costing this government to enforce or follow the traditional knowledge policy in his department?

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The department had at least two positions designated for the purpose of dealing with traditional knowledge in the old Department of Renewable Resources. In the course of amalgamation, what we have done at this time is indicated that traditional knowledge would be a responsibility, a partial responsibility of at least two different staff people within the department. In December, I asked the department to contract a consultant to advise myself, as a Minister, on how the amalgamation could be used to enhance this government's view of traditional knowledge and better reflect the policy we have in place. In respect to the Member, in many cases we think the use of traditional knowledge on a purely scientific basis, perhaps in the way we conduct business, the way we conduct ourselves and the way we make decisions could very well lead to situations where we would be saving money and not, as he inferred, wasting money. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, does the Minister have a definition of traditional knowledge?

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Kakfwi.

Madam Chair. The government has a policy regarding traditional knowledge and the government does have a definition of what they think they believe is defined as traditional knowledge. I do not think it is really that definitive. It is an evolving type of concept that is controversial. Some people, having never been blessed with seeing the merits of traditional knowledge at work, are the doubting Thomases of the scientific community today. They are loath to suggest there is any merit to it unless they can actually put their hand on the substance of it as you would read in the Bible. Others are taking a more positive view that aboriginal people, First Nations, have lived and survived for thousands of years. There are certain knowledge, practices

and beliefs that have evolved because of the relationship with the land and the wildlife in their environment. Whether it is based on measurable scientific basis or not, one must believe it has some basis. That is the general view that we take. Specifically, I do not think it is relevant whether I, as a Minister, have a definition for traditional knowledge. The fact is this government has a position on it. It supports and advocates the use and the recognition of traditional knowledge and we have a policy on it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I support traditional knowledge in the regions of wildlife management. I believe it has been a proven fact that there is some scientific support for that type of traditional knowledge. I know in some communities in my region we have had to wait for the scientific community to catch up to the traditional knowledge in relation to wildlife, but eventually both groups worked out an agreement whereby one would benefit the other. My question to the Minister though is: I would like to know how much it is costing this government to document this traditional knowledge. I understand the Minister identified two PYs under his department, but I also understand this policy is government-wide. I am trying to find out just exactly how much it is costing this government to document traditional knowledge. How much are we paying consultants? That is the type of information I am after, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. I do not know if the Minister would be able to identify how much it would cost government-wide, since he is only representing his department, but with respect to Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We have a responsibility to co-ordinate and encourage departments all across this government to recognize traditional knowledge and to find ways to make use of it and to have it reflected in the way they conduct themselves and the way they do business. We have just started some discussion about how that could be done. I think it is a legitimate inquiry to say how much does this government spend in all the different departments in dealing with traditional knowledge. Does the Department of Education, Culture and Employment spend money dealing with traditional knowledge? Do our wildlife people have research activities that deal with that? What about transportation? The fact is we do not know, at least I do not know. But I think if we have a policy and we want that policy reflected in all departments, then we need to develop some basis on which to advance it and to deal with senior managers on how we think they should try to relate to it in a way that could be measured. Does that mean we might be able to develop a mechanism that can count the number of dollars that we expend on a yearly basis department by department? I would not be able to answer that question. As I say, I think there needs to be some effort made to see if it could be done, since we should be able to answer Mr. Steen's question. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. A final supplementary in this set, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Somehow or other I get the impression I found another one of those policies that the government does not know how much it costs to operate. I would like to ask the Minister more directly, does he have any consultants working for his department and how much do those consultants get paid a year? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, Mr. Steen implies, perhaps in a benign way but still it needs to be addressed, that every time we have a policy it automatically means it costs the government more money. I do not think that should go unchallenged. I think it should be said some things are just as necessary to do as your daily bodily functions. You cannot go without them. In our case, we are a government that presides over a range of aboriginal people who have been here for thousands of years and who have a huge body of knowledge that most of us have absolutely no idea about. To start suggesting at the onset that it is automatically costing us more money and not see it as an investment, I think can be seen as derogative. The fact is for anybody to suggest that although people have been living here for thousands of years, different people adapt, the Inuvialuit, the Dene and the different nations of the Dene including the Metis, that for all the thousands of years we have existed and the tremendous amount of use and knowledge we have acquired living on this land and making use of resources that we have absolutely nothing to contribute to the scientific community. We have absolutely no knowledge that is worth looking at is astounding. That is being suggested in some quarters. I am not saying that Mr. Steen is saying that, but because it does start to wander in that area, I think we need to address it up front. I wanted to make the point that it is, in my view, an investment.

We are not fully aware of the full potential and use of traditional knowledge. Mr. Steen points a more measurable one which is the profound knowledge that aboriginal people have on different species of wildlife and their habitat. The scientific community has taken to that very easily. There are other areas that are not as well known or recognized and perhaps more controversial. We should view it in the same way, that it is worth looking at and should be treated with respect even if we cannot measure it with our conventional scientific instruments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.

I did not answer the last part of the question of the honourable Member for Nunakput. He asked about the consultants. I did ask the department to contract a consultant in December, to look for someone that would have some credibility to advise myself and the department on how we should deal with the issue of traditional knowledge, to see how this department in the reorganizing that we are doing, should reflect through the allocation of resources the position of the importance that we place on traditional knowledge. We have contracted a person to work with us for six months. Out of respect for the consultant I

prefer not to talk about the value of the contract. That is the dollar amount of the scientific contract. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some questions on a different aspect under corporate management. Could the Minister indicate whether all the affected employees, specifically at the senior management level, their situations have all been resolved and dealt with and that staffing transition has been taken care of?

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Madam Chair. There are still some staff positions, including senior management, that are not yet resolved. Either the staff people themselves have not decided exactly what it is they want to do or, as a government, we have not decided exactly how to proceed. There are some that require resolution, some decisions to be made in the next month or so. Thank you.