Thank you, Mr. Henry. Madam Minister.
Debates of Feb. 11th, 1998
Topics
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will have to go back to those municipalities and collect that information. It will take a couple of days to get detailed information back to the Member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
The Chair Vince Steen
Thank you, Madam Minister. Total region $5,817 million. I have Mr. Krutko and Mr. Roland in that order. Mr. Krutko.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regard to block funding and the way the allocations have been distributed, you say you use a formula but looking at it in the context of population breakdown, where Fort Simpson has a population of roughly 1,200 people, yet you talk about a community such as Inuvik which is almost at 3,300 people, almost three times the size of that community, yet they receive in the area of over $170,000. Somehow the formula does not follow the principle that it is based on the amount of taxes a community generates, because it is based on a tax-based community. That formula you are using is not exactly accurate or fair. In regard to the other question about operations and maintenance, where they receive $870,000, yet Inuvik receives $530,000, again there is a real discrepancy. In regard to the formula that is used for block funding, could the Minister explain the formula, exactly what are the principles of that formula for allocation of block funding?
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will refer that to the deputy minister.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
The Chair Vince Steen
Thank you, Madam Minister. This is the third time this particular question has been asked, I think there might be some elaboration required, Ms. Ballantyne.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
Ballantyne
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we do not use a formula to calculate the capital portion of the block funding agreement, just the same way that we do not use a formula to bring forward capital projects to the House for nontax-based communities. It is based on the need in the community which takes into account a number of factors. The state of development of that community would be a factor in terms of the planned projects included in the block-funded capital portion that if the community were not block funded, would be being brought into this House on a line-by-line basis for approval. There is no formula for the capital portion of the block funding agreement. I apologize if that was not made clear in previous answers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 734
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If that is the case, how did you come up with the amount of $1.525 million over three years? There had to be some way of formulating that amount to know exactly what that amount was going to be for and what those items were going to be for?
In regard to your response to the questions, I find it hard to support some initiatives such as this without knowing what the answers are in regard to the nontax-based communities where you are saying, they do not pay their taxes, so they should be getting less than tax-based communities. That is the message that I am getting. I do not believe that is the case. All the communities in the north have to be dealt with on a fair basis. The way the municipalities are developed, that the larger you get, the more responsibilities you take on. Also realizing that the formula that is in place for municipalities has been downgrading in regard to the amount of capital projects the communities have been getting in the past. Because of the situation we find ourselves, it is the smaller communities who had to take a lot of cuts in regard to not having the opportunity to have recreation centres or upgrading their utilidor systems or their capital infrastructure, because of the way that the municipalities were dealt with. But now, because of this block funding arrangement, it seems like there is not a balance there.
You keep referring back to the Keewatin project, but what is being done to those communities which do not want to look at formulating a regional structure such as in the Keewatin, but looking at in regard to the overall formula for all communities, not just these ones here. It seems like, if communities ended up getting $1.5 million over three years, we would all be happy. I do not think that is the case. There has to be some policy or principle in place that you came up with this number. Where did it come from?
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Ballantyne
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister has indicated that we will provide the detail of the capital that went into the negotiations for the capital portion of Fort Simpson's block funding agreement. We have already apologized for not having that information available today to provide to the Member, but the commitment has been made to do so. I would also clarify that I do not believe that I suggested that nontax-based communities should get less than tax-based communities. I believe I indicated that, today, we do not have a way to block fund nontax-based communities. We do have a way to block fund tax-based communities. I believe I also indicated that tax-based municipalities raise a considerable portion of their own revenues through taxation. I am at a bit of a loss to know what else I can provide to the Member at this point. Again, I am sorry that we do not have the detail that he is looking for here, but I can assure the Member that the department did look at the capital plan, the capital forecast that we have in place for all communities in terms of determining the amount that would be a fair and equitable amount for Fort Simpson to have for capital. It is our experience that communities will experience ebbs and flows of capital planning. There will be a few years where there are number of capital projects provided and then years where once needs have been met, there is a bit of a lull until population or other drivers indicate that there is a need again. We are not suggesting this is an amount that would be sustainable forever for Fort Simpson. We are saying this is the amount that was negotiated for these three years. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
David Krutko Mackenzie Delta
Just a clarification. The block funding as it stands now is $1.525 million spread out over three years, at a total of $4.5 million dollars. Is that correct?
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Ballantyne
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that is correct. Thank you.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
The Chair Vince Steen
Thank you, Ms. Ballantyne. Mr. Krutko, your time is up. I will have to recognize Mr. Roland at this time.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Floyd Roland Inuvik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have heard a few times this information will be supplied on a number of issues brought forward. Hopefully, other departments will be picking up on this. Myself, looking at the motion that was defeated, was brought on because we need more information to deal with this item. I do not think it was to deal with a specific community. That just brought it forefront. Hopefully in the future, and I will be asking this next time, something like this comes forward, we will have the information, not only by yourself but, hopefully, other departments so we can avoid this kind of concern. I am sure the Member whose community we are speaking about, was quite concerned. Thank you.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that was just a comment, no question to it. Thank you.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Floyd Roland Inuvik
Yes, Mr. Chairman. In the future, will the department be bringing forward this kind of information as to what brought about the figures that were negotiated and we can forego the long discussions? Thank you.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735
Manitok Thompson Aivilik
Thank you. Yes, we will provide all that information. We apologize for all this conversation and all these questions. We could have avoided it but we have to go back to those communities and get that information. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 11-13(5): To Defer Further Consideration, Fort Smith Region, Detail Of Capital Community Operations
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 735