I would also like to table the response from the government, provided on September 22, 1997, the Response to the Working Group on Affirmative Action and Human Resource Management by the 13th Assembly, specifically Mr. Todd. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Item 14, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have three documents I would like to table today.

The first is the affirmative action data from PeopleSoft as of December 1999, provided by corporate human resources services.

The second is human resources occupational comparison, 1995-2000, provided by the Financial Management Board Secretariat.

The third is the change in human resources positions, 1993-1994 to 1997-1998 provided by the Department of the Executive, in response to Committee Motion 4-13(5) in the 13th Legislative Assembly. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 14, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a document called Equality of Men and Women in the Northwest Territories. It contains a policy that says the Government of the Northwest Territories will actively step forward and encourage the participation of women on an equal basis with men in the government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Item 14, tabling of documents. Item 15, notices of motion. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 15, notices of motion. Item 16, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to deal with my motion today.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The Member is seeking unanimous consent to deal with his motion today. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Dent, you may proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, honourable Members.

WHEREAS it is incumbent upon the Government of the Northwest Territories to provide services and deliver programs to the residents through the establishment and maintenance of a public service;

AND WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories, in recruiting and retaining a professional public service, must ensure that it is representative of the diversity of the Northwest Territories population and allows access to all residents to opportunities within the public service;

AND WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories, in meeting its obligations to have a professional, non-partisan and representative public service, must ensure that human resource policies and procedures are adhered to;

AND WHEREAS since the dismantling of the Department of Personnel was completed in 1996-97, successive governments have not demonstrated their ability to actively coordinate the human resources needs of the public service;

AND WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories statistical information regarding the success of the Affirmative Action Policy, does not appear to reflect the desired representative public service;

AND WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories continues to demonstrate that it cannot coordinate and be accountable for its actions in certain aspects of meeting its human resource responsibilities;

AND WHEREAS the human resource function and responsibilities are now delegated to and spread throughout departments and boards of this government;

AND WHEREAS there is a need for adequate reporting, monitoring and accountability by the Government of the Northwest Territories;

AND WHEREAS the current public service, and those wishing to become members of the territorial public service, must be satisfied that the hiring process is transparent, fair and accountable;

AND WHEREAS there is a need for an independent agency to ensure that all persons are treated fairly and have access to employment opportunities in the territorial public service;

AND WHEREAS the Northwest Territories is currently the only jurisdiction in Canada, with the exception of Nunavut, which exercises authority over a public service and does not have an impartial or independent body or agency to ensure a representative public service;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, that this Legislative Assembly wishes to ensure that the Government of the Northwest Territories has a professional, non-partisan and representative public service;

AND FURTHER requests the Executive Council to bring forward legislation to establish a Public Service Commission for the Northwest Territories;

AND FURTHERMORE that the Executive Council introduce this legislation by February 15, 2001. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion. The Chair recognizes the Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the four times I have run for a seat in this House, during four election campaigns, when I have gone door-to-door, there have been concerns expressed to me about the hiring practices by a significant number of constituents each time. People have brought up concerns as to whether the hiring processes are fair, whether they are consistent across government, through departments, and whether affirmative action policies are being interpreted and applied properly.

Mr. Speaker, in the 12th Assembly, serious concerns were raised about human resources practices. We were then told that by ripping the Department of Personnel apart and splitting its functions between the Financial Management Board Secretariat and the departments, we would help solve some of the problems. We would save money and by bringing accountability to the departments, we would achieve better affirmative action statistics.

Mr. Speaker, in the 13th Assembly, the concern continued unabated. The Government Operations Committee did extensive work, submitting a detailed report with many recommendations which were adopted as motions in this House in committee of the whole. That report was tabled by Mr. Miltenberger.

Mr. Speaker, there has been no significant response from the government to this report. Earlier this year, the Accountability and Oversight Committee identified their concerns about human resources practices to the government. The committee sent a letter to the Minister responsible for the Financial Management Board Secretariat, Mr. Handley.

In that letter, we noted that:

"It is felt that with the abolition of the Department of Personnel, and the subsequent reassignment of those responsibilities to each department, that it may now be time to complete an evaluation. The committee would like to be advised as to whether the government would be prepared to perform an operational audit of the Government of the Northwest Territories' human resource administration and services. This audit could be performed by the audit bureau, and include a cost-benefit comparison between the previous human resource management model and the present model."

Mr. Speaker, the government chose not to agree to follow through on this request. We received a letter from Mr. Handley, in which he noted a number of new initiatives that had been undertaken in the past couple of years. He summarized the rejection by saying:

"I do not believe the timing is right for a management audit of human resources management in the government. I suggest we review this idea in about one year's time."

Mr. Speaker, we have spent many years talking about this issue. We do not have time to wait a year. We are not satisfied waiting a year. We want this government to take action now.

In the past, Mr. Speaker, cost has been used as a reason to not proceed with an independent body like the Public Service Commission. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, given the growth of the number of people performing the job that was formerly done by the Department of Personnel, I cannot buy that argument.

A Public Service Commission should certainly not increase cost. In fact, it would probably allow for some economies. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned earlier today, there has been a 21 percent growth in the number of people providing human resources functions for this government since 1991-1992.

Over that same period, the people for whom they provide the services, including all boards and agencies, has dropped from 6,133 to 3,481, a 43 percent decrease. Twenty-one percent more people providing services to 43 percent fewer people.

Mr. Speaker, earlier today, I had questioned the Premier on accountability. The Premier indicated that Cabinet as a whole has collective responsibility for ensuring there is accountability and fairness with the policies across the government departments.

Mr. Speaker, I remember when this decentralization of the Department of Personnel was first talked about. It was sold to many Members of this House as, rather than a collective responsibility, an individual responsibility. Ministers would be held responsible for the performance of their departments and how human resources functions were being performed. Ministers would be held accountable in this House for their performance, and there would be consequences if we did not see positive action in affirmative action.

We were told that the individual deputy ministers would be held accountable, that they would not receive performance bonuses if they were not making sure they were following the practices of this government when it came to human resources.

Today we have heard that there may not be a method of keeping this accountability. That causes me significant concern, Mr. Speaker. I believe we need to have some way to ensure we are monitoring what is happening in human resources practices. We need to know that we are having that done by an independent agency, which ensures fairness and equity and ensures they are following adopted practices and procedures of this Legislative Assembly.

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would encourage all Members to vote in favour of this motion and encourage the government to follow through in a speedy fashion to meet the request that we make with it. At the appropriate time, Mr. Speaker, I will be requesting a recorded vote.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. To the motion. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have heard through this House today of the failures of the work of previous Assemblies. Mr. Speaker, since 1976, this is an issue that has been wrestled with by governments. The first Office of Native Employment was established in 1986. In 1984, a paper on affirmative action was released, and there is still much discussion on it.

The current Affirmative Action Policy was implemented a decade ago in 1989. Since then, we have been continuing to wrestle with the idea of a representative workforce in the Northwest Territories. I am sure we can find some positive examples, but the majority are at the bottom end of the scale in the smaller communities and regions.

Mr. Speaker, overall, when you look at the public service that performs the work on behalf of the government compared to those who are trying to get into a government position, to be fair to them, I think we need to take positive steps towards establishing something that is open, transparent and accountable. They can feel trust in what they say at that level will not hurt them in the long run, because that is some of the stuff we are hearing on the streets.

Mr. Speaker, as I stated, this government has said on a number of occasions that it is going to do things differently. It is going to change the way government does business. It is time to walk the talk. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. To the motion. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed a pleasure to speak in favour of this motion. It is very exciting to be speaking on one of two issues that were front and centre in our campaign platform, the first one being a Human Rights Act, which we passed a motion for earlier in this House.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is obvious from the discussions today that a Public Service Commission is something there is a huge need for. I can say to you, Mr. Speaker, that during the campaign and thereafter, I do not think there is a day that goes by when somebody is not happy with what is happening and what they are experiencing when they go to get a job.

As I said in my statement, the complaints are on both sides. There are people, non-aboriginal people in my riding who feel they have no chance of getting a job. Then there are aboriginal people or people of diverse backgrounds who feel they are not being treated fairly. I think in many cases, that is true. That speaks to the need for an independent body.

The message I really want to send out, Mr. Speaker, is that this should not be seen as a negative attack on the management or the government itself. I know many of the human resources personnel who work for the government, and I know full well they are doing the best they can in their jobs.

I think the Public Service Commission will help those employees, so they are not saddled with a daily deluge of complaints from people who really believe they have been treated unfairly. Mr. Speaker, when we talk about this motion, I think we should be aware of the fact that we are talking about people's careers and lives.

This is not just about whether government is doing this or that, or what the people on that side believe compared to this side. It does not have anything to do with that. We are talking about people who want to have a say in their career, who want to make the advancement they feel they deserve. They want to be treated fairly for the education they have received. I think this is the right thing to do.

I think the motion is worded very well, and states the motives behind this. I do hope the government will take this seriously. We will work with the government to make this happen after so many years of talking about it.

I also have to add, Mr. Speaker, it is a great thing that we have such a consensus on this side of the floor. That is not always the case, but this is a very strong consensus, and I would like the government to be aware of that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

-- Applause

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few things to clarify a couple of points and issue a word of caution before we get too eager to create more government. I have mixed feelings in a way, because this is more Yellowknife government. My riding represents Yellowknife.

Seriously, do we not want to take some time to look at other options? There are other options out there. I do not know that we want to jump into a Public Service Commission as being the panacea for everything. It may not be. It does move control over our human resources to an arms-length from this House. We are talking about creating something independent that is going to be better. I do not know, maybe it is. We need to look at what the options are. There may be other ways of doing it.

A second issue in my mind is when the previous government dismantled the Department of Personnel, no resources were transferred to departments. The departments created their own human resources services. No resources were transferred.

If we do this, you can look at it two ways. We are either going to be taking resources away from departments like Health and Social Services and Education, Culture and Employment, where we did not give them any, or else we are going to be adding to our bureaucracy. We have to keep that in mind as we go.

This may be costing us dollars. Departments were not given any when the transfer was made. The Department of Personnel was dismantled partly as a way of saving money and as a way of trying to decentralize things out of headquarters into the regions and departments.

Another major issue in my mind, and it is a fairly important one, is our labour relations for GNWT employees fits under the Canada Labour Code. We do not have a labour policy in the Territories. We have not, as a government, made a decision to even pursue that from Canada. There are implications there from aboriginal land claims groups and for aboriginal self-government authorities. We should look at that issue first because the impact on us, in terms of our ability to make our labour legislation, is a question that we need to consider before we jump in and create another body here that may complicate lives for aboriginal land claims and self-government groups.

The other concern I have is that although some MLAs may have discussed this for many years, as a government we have not discussed this for many years. Again, I say, take a little bit of caution here because we do not want to jump from the frying pan into the fire with our need to create something new. A lot of us have not had the opportunity to sit around a table and discuss this, and I think that the kind of schedule that you are proposing is really pushing it fast. There are a lot of issues involved here.

The other point I want to make is that we have, as a government, said that we want to work in partnership with other governments; the federal government, aboriginal governments, and so on. For us to go racing off to create a Public Service Commission without ample time for consultation with other levels of government, particularly aboriginal governments, causes me a lot of concern here.

I do not have a problem with the general intention of this motion. I think the general intention is to create a better public service, a more accountable public service, but to just jump in and say, "A Public Service Commission is the way to do it," without really looking at what the options are, looking at what the implications are. Asking that legislation be brought forward by February 15th 2001 is really pushing the edge of the envelope. I am not sure that this is really a good way to create new legislation or to create new institutions. I am not speaking against the intention, I am just saying let us exercise some caution. Let us be responsible; we are a new government. Let us not jump into something that is going to get us from behind here. I think it is much more complicated than just setting up a commission. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. To the motion. The Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in support of this motion. This issue, for me, has been on the table for almost the entire life of the 13th Assembly, into this one, where a bad decision was made to dismantle and blow up the Department of Personnel with no clear plans in place. We have paid a price ever since. We are now faced with, very clearly in everybody's estimation, a fragmented and uncoordinated human resources service across government.

Mr. Speaker, the numbers clearly indicate that the costs and the number of people that we are using, who are put to the task, are greater than before in the Department of Personnel. This tells me that there is duplication, there is extra cost, there is overlap, and that it should not cost more, and, in fact, there should be a cost savings.

I would, once again, hope that this Cabinet, this government, would reach out and embrace this motion and the intent of this motion. It is worrisome to me, once again, like with Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, where we requested to take a critical look at Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development and it was blocked. We requested to take a clear look at personnel services and do an audit, and that was rejected. Now we are being cautioned against doing this, that we have to take time.

Well, Mr. Speaker, the political clock does not stop ticking. We are already six months into our term. This is a critical issue; it is going to take time to put things in place. I think the will of the Ordinary Members will be clearly demonstrated. I think the Public Service Commission will help alleviate not only the concerns raised by my colleagues who have spoken so far, but also the concern that was raised earlier in this House, that I think every Member has heard.

That is the perception in many quarters by many people that the process is not open, transparent and accountable in many cases. That in fact, it is often a meaningless formality because there are already decisions made on who to hire. By supporting and passing this motion, the implementation of a Public Service Commission will help do away with, if nothing else, the perception of managerial interference and political interference in the hiring process. That, I think, is one of the most fundamental needs for this particular agency that is being promoted.

Mr. Speaker, of course, I would encourage Cabinet to embrace this and to show us that they are not going to sit on their hands and want us to defer, defer, defer. We are going to embrace this and make a move on this long outstanding issue, tied in directly with affirmative action, which, by all accounts, is considerably less than effective. That is the kindest way that I can probably refer to that.

I would also like to suggest, as we look at this motion, that the work that has been done in the past by the previous standing committee and the recommendations that were put forward were very detailed and addressed a lot of the issues. The government chose not to respond actively on any of them that I can recollect. I really fully support this motion and I encourage Cabinet to get ahead of the parade on this one, and embrace the motion and the intent in it. Thank you.