Thank you, Mr. Delorey. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Braden.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I too stand to speak in favour of the bill and to put my position on the record as some of my colleagues have done. I will be subscribing to the supplementary plan.

Mr. Speaker, this is quite literally an issue where it can be said that the buck stops here, right here. I have already been taken to task by one of my opponents in the previous election campaign, who said "If you want another reason for me to run against you again, Bill, you have one." That is fine. I have already accepted that criticism in the media. I will continue to take the position that I have outlined.

I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, what some of my colleagues have already talked about. When we consider taking on public life like this, one of the things we have to ask ourselves is what is in it for me, for my family, for the security, and for life after public life?

We just had a panel that reviewed salary levels for this Assembly. It came back and said they cannot recommend any increase in pay or benefit levels. We have looked at increases in expense allowances. I think for the chairs of some of our committees, an increase in that stipend, which will come into effect in the next election.

For this term and going into the next term, the 15th Assembly, there will be no increase in remuneration. I spoke in the media, Mr. Speaker, to an aspect of this that I think has merit and has validity, and that is for the benefits, the pay and the remuneration that MLAs receive. We are in a very competitive market, especially in the Northwest Territories. The kind of skills, the kind of experience and background that I believe are required here to serve the people of the North well are also in demand out there across the Northwest Territories in the private sector and in industry and indeed, in the various levels of government.

I contend, Mr. Speaker, that by applying this supplementary pension, that is otherwise sitting there and doing nothing -- as some Members have said, it would be very difficult to turn into the general revenue fund -- this is something that without new cost to the taxpayer can, for I think an estimated eight or ten years at least, be applied as one other benefit, one other advantage, one other attraction to help bring the people who are really well qualified to consider public life and run in elections.

I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that we should try and stay ahead of the private sector. That is not the point. Here is something that can really serve to encourage people to say that this is a worthy task and there is a reasonable level of remuneration.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make one final comment. It is respectfully to take what one of my colleagues has said that there is a reward to be had here. I do not look at it at that way at all. I look at the reward that I get out of doing this job, really, in some ways, being able to make a difference in people's lives, open up opportunities and be able to put my name to some of those things. That is really where the reward is.

This kind of thing does not fall into that category but I believe that it is certainly a legitimate and, in this case, a cost-free way of improving the calibre of the remuneration that is here and being able to attract people to come into public life. That is my position on this. I hope Members will very strongly consider continuing to support this. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Antoine. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Mr. Speaker, this is a free vote in this House on this issue. It is a personal choice and decision we are all going to have to make.

I look around this room and I see nine of us from the 13th Assembly. This is an issue that has a history with us, with me. When I hear the comments, I have a special empathy and understanding for what they are saying. It is difficult for some of us.

Those that come to us in the 14th Assembly two years in can be much more categorical. They can be much more definitive. They can be much more pointed in their comments. They did not live through the dark days of the 13th Assembly like the nine of us here did.

We made choices. I made a choice to lead by example for whatever the reason. I voted against first reading of this bill and I will vote against second reading of this bill. I accept very clearly whatever comments my colleagues from the 13th Assembly want to make about my actions and what they may think is my motive.

Those of you from the 14th Assembly that are new here, I would ask you to be cognizant as we deal with this issue that all things are not black and white. It is not easy to be definitive and categorical, as some of you may want to choose to be or you may want us to choose to be.

I will make my choice as I have indicated. I will vote. If this bill passes second reading, I will vote against third reading. I do not condemn anybody. I do not think this is an abuse of power. I think this is just a difficult issue for me politically that I am trying to deal with in the best way that I can for myself. We are all making that choice.

When this final decision is made and, as my colleague Mr. Bell says, if it is going to pass as he predicts, then we will all have to make that other final choice. Once the voting is done and the will of the House is known, we all have to make that other personal choice of do we sign up for the pension or do we not?

I will make that choice as well, Mr. Speaker, and I can tell you what it will be. I will accept the will of the House, but I will take every step along the way to make the case that is consistent with the position that I took in the 13th Assembly. That is my personal position. I have nothing but respect and understanding for the positions taken by all of you in this House. I just ask that you be cognizant and aware of those issues as we deal with this. Let's get this dealt with and let's make the decisions necessary. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my comments will be brief. This issue did arise during the 13th Legislative Assembly and at the time, circumstances were such that we had to address the financial deficit of the Government of the Northwest Territories. Decisions were made. However, the reality of it was that contribution that we made to eliminate the pension contributed nothing towards the elimination of the deficit of the Northwest Territories. What we did do, however, was take a cut in our pay at the time as did civil servants. That was a contribution, but the pension area had no particular relevance to the deficit elimination in the Northwest Territories -- absolutely none.

I guess what I look at, Mr. Speaker, is the issue of what does a person do once they leave public life? There has been reference made to it. Mr. Lafferty referred to it. You know, it is very true. Members may leave here and find themselves in a very difficult situation. I think that should be kept in mind.

Some of us have the ability to move into businesses -- and I say some of us. Even there, some of us have given up our businesses in order to contribute here.

Mr. Speaker, there is a one-year term of once we leave this House, we are not allowed to do business with this government. A one-year term. That means as a consultant, you cut out half of the employment possibility here in this Territory. Many of you, as Mr. Lafferty has said, if you are doing your representation, then you may very well annoy some other employers out there. So what do you get out of this at the end?

At the end, there really is not a great deal of reward. Not that we come in here with the reward in mind, but I think there needs to be recognition of some security. The issue has been covered fully here with the comment that the money that is there, it is not like we are contributing from this government towards this pension. It is already there. We are personally contributing towards that as other Members have.

The income level of MLAs, Mr. Speaker, is not that high. I would suggest to you that many of our public servants make a lot more than our MLAs do, yet the responsibility is incredible.

Mr. Krutko speaks facetiously and in a laughing tone about the grey hairs, but it is very true. All of us put in hour after hour and we do not have a personal life after we get into this House. We really do not have a personal life. I have tremendous difficulty getting around to taking care of my personal affairs, time wise, because when do you leave here, you are either exhausted or you have to take care of constituency business or other matters.

Mr. Speaker, dealing with the issue of pensions, I do not believe we are in any way cutting into the coffers of the territorial government. I think it is very justified. As Mr. Krutko mentioned earlier, previous Members had it in place.

I also agree with Mr. Krutko that we should not cut off the possibility of buying it back for possible service. Why not? That is up to us. If I am prepared to pay for that cost, why should I not be able to do that? I agree with Mr. Krutko on that.

Mr. Speaker, I will be voting in favour, as you can well tell, with the motion. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you Mr. Ootes. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the first Assembly I served in 1987, I remember arguing about some of the benefits that Members and Ministers were providing to themselves. Just before Cabinet was elected, we had some discussion about it. I argued that there was no need for pensions, for supplementary pensions, unmarked cars and other benefits that were apparently available at the time. One of the Members from the Eastern Arctic came over and said "You know, Steve, we are all going to support you for Minister, but if you think you are going to do away with the pension, then we might have to reconsider that". It was an interesting introduction into the Legislature.

The benefits and the way that business is done in this House has not really changed that much. I know that it was of my own free will that I chose to offer to serve the people of the Sahtu and the people of the Northwest Territories. It had nothing to do with the salary and the pension plan. I chose to make the offer. It has been an honour to serve since 1987, both as an MLA and as a Member of Cabinet. It does take many hours of our time -- days and weekends, it is true, but it is our choice. That is how we choose to do our work.

There has been discussion at the beginning of the previous Assembly about cancellation of the supplementary pension. I had argued against it at that time because I believed that Members were entitled to a pension that reflected in large part the commitment and the difficulties of the work.

Many of the Members came from sectors where there was no pension and went back to remote communities, having lost the only jobs they had available to them. Since it was bestowed upon us by previous Assemblies, it was difficult, as Mr. Antoine has indicated, to stand there and talk about what we thought we deserved or did not deserve.

Since the Members have brought this issue forward, I must admit that I have not given it a lot of thought. My initial response was I was in support of keeping it. In the first instance, it was voted away from Members in any case. If the Members were talking about reintroducing it, then I would be inclined towards supporting it.

What I wanted to say is that today, I thought there was a good discussion. There is, unfortunately, sometimes a little bit of animosity amongst ourselves about the way we phrase things. That is unfortunate because I believe that we owe it to the public to have a full, free debate without intimidation, without ridicule.

Personally, I admire people like Ms. Lee who, as a new Member, raises issues with a lot of passion and clarity. Perhaps raising the venom of some Members about the way she phrases things, but I think that is allowed. We have the freedom to express ourselves with all the passion and determination and conviction, as we should.

Those of us who will vote for it will do that. Those who speak against it gave their reasons. I sat here and listened to everybody and enjoyed the debate.

There are many issues that go on beyond this Legislature. We are facing collective bargaining. We did away with the supplementary pension for deputy ministers at the beginning of this government. We are facing a deficit in the next year or so. Those are important considerations to have as people look in and listen to us, watching us from the communities.

There is not enough money for those who are in dire need; housing, day cares, many of the needs we have, but as well, it is true that there will never be enough.

We have an issue here that is not new, as I have said. If it was a new pension that was being proposed, I would object to it because I never brought it forward, never asked for it. It is here. The one sentiment that I think I disagree with is the one expressed that since the majority are going to vote for it, I might as well accept it and sign up for it anyway.

I think it is very important that when we vote, we vote according to our convictions and not take a fatalistic approach that it is going to happen anyway. It is important to stand up and speak our mind at the very first instance, because we know that when it comes to legislation and budgets, even if everyone is in support of a piece of legislation or a budget issue, if we view it as wrong or inappropriate, then we have an obligation and a duty to speak against it.

It is also true that once it passes, that once legislation becomes law, it is our duty to uphold that. There is a big difference between what is proposed and what is passed. The distance between the two is often what measures us in this Legislature. I do not have any particular feelings about this issue. The fact is the pension was there before. It is being suggested to be continued. It was terminated. It is now being offered to be continued. I will support the motion at this time. Thank you.

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. To the principle of the bill. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Steen, to close debate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as a Member of this Assembly representing my constituents of Nunakput, I often wondered in the past how much attention my constituents pay to my salary issues when they are raised in the newspapers or in this House; my pension issues that are raised through the newspapers or through the media and through this House. Interestingly enough, I do not recall the salary or the pension being an issue at the election both times I was elected. It just was not one of the issues.

I do not think it is an issue now. I do not think my constituents would feel all that upset should I vote in favour of a pension for myself. Also, I do not feel that I have to answer to the newspapers or to the media for my vote here. I may not even feel that I have to answer to the rest of the Territory, but I do feel that I have to answer to my constituents. Like I said, I never got an indication from my constituents that this is an issue. I am sure that not one of my constituents would ever feel that I took bread or butter off their table in order to give myself a pension. If anything, it was the reverse.

I recall in the past Assembly where we discussed this that I did not vote in favour of this thing willingly. I recall there was some unified decision that we would come in here as a unified vote, that everybody would show uniform. I did not see the sense of it at that time and I do not see the sense of it now.

Some people say some people never get a pension. Well, that is true, but they have to live in order to get to that age to reach that pension. That is one of the catches of the pension -- you have to earn it. You have to live long enough to enjoy that pension. It is not going to come all in one lump.

I believe you have the option of buying out the pension, but then you do not get a pension in the end. There is a catch to this thing. You have to live. You have to earn it. You have to reach that magic age.

I also remember that there are a lot of people in my riding, and probably in the whole Territories, who never paid into Canada pension because they never had a job all their life. They were trappers. Now, they are that age and they are receiving old-age pension, and they are happy about it, that somebody put in place a pension for them. Somebody thought of the future for them.

I tell you, when you get towards the sunset ages, the pension starts looking pretty good. I really wish all the Members in this House a long life and that they may enjoy the pension, if they ever vote in favour of it. Thank you.

-- Laughter

-- Applause

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Well put. This ends debate on the issue. The Chair recognizes the honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to request a recorded vote on this motion.

The Member is seeking a recorded vote when the time comes. Thank you. Is the House ready for the vote? Thank you. All those in favour, please rise.

Thank you. All those opposed, please rise.

Thank you. All those abstaining, please rise.

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. The result of the vote: those in favour, 12; those opposed, five; those abstaining, one. The vote is carried. Bill 7 has had second reading. The Chair recognizes the honourable Member for North Slave, Mr. Lafferty.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to waive Rule 69(2). Are there any nays? There are no nays. The Chair did not hear any nays, therefore Bill 7 is referred to committee of the whole. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters; Bill 2, Bill 4, Committee Report 1-14(5), Committee Report 2-14(5), Committee Report 3-14(5), Motion 1-14(5) and Bill 7 with Mr. Krutko in the chair.