Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as all work we would do, once the work is completed, then we would get a stamped approval or a letter of occupancy or certification. At that point the clock would start ticking. The work would be done once we get approval. If approval is granted by the House, there would be a contract issued for the architectural engineering and then other work would begin once that is done. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Next I have Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My comments and questions are also with the continuation of the operation of the Deh Cho Hall. I just want to advise my honourable colleagues that this is not a new project, nor is it something that came out of the blue. It's something that myself as MLA for Nahendeh and Fort Simpson that I've been working with the people on, on how to address the office needs. In 2002, when the fire marshal came out with his report, he's saying that in 2006 the building is going to have to be shut down or renovated. Everybody said that's great, let's just renovate this building or even retrofit it and extend the life by 10 or 20 years that Members are questioning. But we all know how retrofits work and renovations. It costs almost the same as a new building. Do the Minister's estimates include an amount for a complete renovation and can you tell this committee how much it was?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if we were to do the full requirement of complete renovation for that facility to get another between 10 or 20 years, I believe, a full renovation would be $12 million. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That's something that kind of weighed a lot on the community decision as it went along. They're like myself and anything that government does, why does it cost so much even a simple estimate for office space? As we discussed earlier in the day, it's like $320,000. I'm not too sure why it is, but in the construction field the cost of labour and materials are just astronomical. A new project such as this, we're looking at $3 million. If Members of this side of the House had the power to get the government to spend money, I would certainly champion the motion to spend $20 million and get this new building created right

away. But when there's other factors in the way here, and I'm sure that there's lots of pressures on our government on how to spend their capital dollars and one of them is to hang on to their $40 million courthouse that's here in Yellowknife that nobody from the region ever wanted. But aside from that, this is something that the community...I've been working with them and trying to get this on the ground, trying to find the best solution, and the best solution right now is to extend the life and to continue to work with government and look at other ways of creating a new building. One of my colleagues mentioned getting the governments involved or the Dehcho governments involved in creating a new building. But that's still some time away and unfortunately we're stuck where we are today. That is maintaining an office building because I can ask the Minister as well there, Mr. Chairman, you know? Do nothing. What is the option if we do nothing at all, Mr. Chairman?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the option of doing nothing would not be the responsible option of government because the fire marshal would, based on the discussions and the requirements that we need to do to keep this facility open for a couple of years until we get to a new facility would be, for example, they require having a plan in place to either bring the building up to code or to vacate the building. The fire marshal at any point here can step in if they feel the minimum upgrades don't begin ASAP, they may be directed to vacate the building. Closing the building has also been identified. So we would be in a very bad situation. Not only would the non-government organizations be out in the cold, so would a number of departments.

Just for the record, Mr. Chairman, the estimates prepared in 2004 totalled $12 million and that's bringing the building right up to code. The 2004 estimates also identified to replace the existing facility, all the space being used, was $20 million. The most recent estimates to accommodate only the GNWT staff and Aurora College has been approximately $10 million. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Menicoche. Thank you. Next I have Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a quick question for Mr. Roland. You continue to say that the minimum code requirements will get you two to four years more out of the building. Now, is that set in stone? I mean, do the renovations, are they not going to be code in two or three years? Is it possible that the life of the building could be extended a little longer? Because I thought when you brought something up to code, you got longer use out of the building. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in discussions with the fire marshal's office, the minimum amount of upgrade required if we only intend to use the building for another two to four years is what's been identified. If we intend to use it beyond that timeline, then we have to upgrade the rest of the code requirements that are put in place, and that's where we get into the $12 million figure. To meet the minimum requirements that we have been directed to, we're looking at the $3.5 million. So ultimately it's if we were going to go beyond the two to four years, then we're going to have to increase the amount of work to another level. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find it kind of odd that we're only going to get two to four years if we do minimum code requirements. You're in a house and somebody says you have to change your wiring. You change your wiring, now you're up to code. That's going to last longer than two to four years. I'm just making a point that I just find it kind of odd that the minimum code would only be good for two to four years and then expires. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Roland, did you want to respond?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's not that the work that we're going to do expires. It's that if we're going to use it for longer than the years we've identified, other requirements are going to have to come into place. That's what we've been told from the fire marshal's office is if we're going to use it beyond this year, here's the amount of work that is required. That's what we've based the estimate on. If we're going to go beyond those years, here are further things that you're going to have to repair. So that's what we've been directed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. McLeod. Thank you. Next I have Mrs. Groenewegen.

Mr. Chairman, the more I hear the less believable this story becomes. You know, it is no wonder we have a capital infrastructure deficit in the Northwest Territories when you look at the kind of money and the way that we're going about doing things. I mean, it's no wonder we don't have enough money. So in answer to the question, how long have we known we have a problem, we've known we've had a problem for four years. Now there's no money budgeted. We've known since 2002. This is 2006. So we've know for four years that we have a problem and that a D-day was coming here on this with the fire marshal. But now with no, and I think I heard that there's no money in the budget for this, there's nothing planned, this is it. So, like, whose excellent planning was that? I think that's terrible. I still haven't got an answer from the Minister on how many square feet we are talking about. You can't tell me the building costs $19 million and not be able to tell me how many square feet you're going to, you know, if you're going to take your core government client departments with you to the new building, how many square feet is that? How much square feet are you occupying now with the NGOs and all the extra people you have in the building? Those are two fundamental numbers that are just so germane to this analysis. I need to know those numbers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as for the planning and how it got through to this stage, the client department would have to probably best answer that. The square footage, I would have to

come back with that number. I know we have it, I just don't have that level of detail with me. The information I'm provided is the existing renovation estimates based on an estimate done in 2004 is $12 million. That's for the facility as it is. To replace the facility with the same size as being used and occupied right now with government and non-government occupants, is the $20 million. For just GNWT staff and Aurora College, then we're looking at $10 million and I would have to get the square footage detail for the Member. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Well, before we can, I think, make any decision on what we're doing here, we need to have that kind of information. I mean, this is like a very significant amount of money. I have to say that I thought Mr. McLeod's questions were excellent too. I mean, how can you say upgrade it to this code, but in two years...that just seems like a very arbitrary decision. In two years, those upgrades are no longer any good. What? Is the code going to change in two years? I mean, that's a very good point. Either the building is safe and it's up to code or it isn't. You know? It isn't, you know, we're just going to go a little ways and then everything is going to be fine. So unless the fire marshal's anticipating that the building's going to deteriorate further in the next two to four years...

But anyway, I go back to my point, Mr. Chairman. My point is that this is a wonderful opportunity. We do owe the people of Fort Simpson better than $3.5 million thrown into something that we're going to tear down in two years. The Minister says two to four years before we can get anything done, before we could even get a building plan. Again, another example, two to four years before you can get a building up? I mean, I'm telling you, as a matter of fact, I just went out to the Member's lounge and phoned a contractor and asked a question. How long reasonably would it take, you know, to build a building in Fort Simpson if the government went to tender for office space? Let me tell you, it wouldn't take two to four years. So again these are artificial, inflated, unreasonable numbers and time frames that the government puts around these things. I bet you could have a building designed that would be an asset to a community. You could probably get the local aboriginal development corporation involved; you probably could get the business community involved; you probably could get a private developer involved, and you could probably have this thing up and operational with ready to turn the key in the door in probably six to 12 months. Because you know on the upgrades I want to tell you something, there's going to be lead time on the upgrades. The $3.5 million, you just can't go out to tender for that unless you get all that work done. I mean to take the lead time, what it would take to put out the tenders for the upgrades is probably longer than it would take you to go to tender for the whole space and get somebody in the private sector to develop it. It would be a real economic boon to the community. It could get a whole lot of people who are in the contracting business involved in that, perhaps even to the region. So I'd like to ask the Minister if he would consider doing that. There is no way that I, for one, quoting the phrase from my good friend from the Mackenzie Delta, that I, for one, am going to support this. This is the irresponsible use of government money.

So lead time. Let's talk about lead time. If you're going to go to tender for upgrades, how long is it going to take you? Thank you.