Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Michael McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The number of units we have in the public housing stock is 2,400 units. That number hasn’t changed as a result of the Northern Housing Trust. The Member is right; by the end of this year we’ll have 500-and-some new units on the ground. Those units were put in place in some cases to private accommodation and in a lot of cases some of the money was spent to replace older public housing units. With these new dollars we intend to do the same thing, including upgrade a lot of the units.

The Member is quite correct when he says where is the new money going to come from. We have not received any new dollars for the public housing operations. We are still at $32 million. Of that, 15 percent is being raised through rents. The rest is all through government subsidy. We are on a declining subsidy scale. Every year we do get reduced. I believe this year it’s $750,000 that CMHC is cutting us back. Next year my understanding is that it will be around $3 million. The only way we can recover that is either to raise rents to operate our units or reduce the stock.

We do have a political challenge to convince the federal government that they cannot move away from this area of responsibility in social housing. We’re not alone. It’s not targeted only to us. It’s targeted to all jurisdictions across Canada. We’re creating alliances to try to address this to convince the federal government that they have to stay involved and this is a serious concern for all of us and we’ll continue to bring that message forward.

The $30 million that is earmarked for ECE for social housing, I noticed that the last numbers I looked at the Housing Corporation only received $27 million. There are $3 million not spent for social housing but was spent in the private sector for housing in regard to rent supps or people renting from the private sector when they went to ECE, because they couldn’t get into housing for one reason or another. I’d like to say, isn’t that a concern of the department that you’re not getting the $30 million back that was given to ECE for social housing, which has now been spent in the private sector and not for social housing?

I’d need clarity to see where the actual dollars the Member is referring to are or what the situation is. In response to the question, we are always concerned. Any time there are dollars that are supposed to be coming to us for whatever reason, whether it’s through the federal government subsidy, the CMHC subsidy, or through our own government, or from our clients, our public housing clients, and we’re not receiving our rents, it becomes an issue. It becomes an issue for us as the Housing Corporation and it becomes an issue for the LHOs. We need to collect at least 90 percent

of our revenues through these in order to operate our LHOs efficiently. Anything under that creates a deficit and really causes difficulty at the LHO level.

I think the Minister should be concerned because the dollars that are going through ECE are being spent for administration, travel, costs that weren’t there before. We have LHOs in all the communities, but we have social workers flying in from the regional centres into communities, overnighting, meeting with clients, flying back to the regional centres. That cost is coming out of your $30 million. I’d like to ask the Minister what exactly his department is doing to assess the relationship that you originally had where you did both the assessment duties and charging the rent to the client instead of having ECE do it. I’d like to know, is the Minister looking at that in light of the questions regarding ensuring that the revenues that are there to operate and maintain social housing are not being spent on travel for other people and other staff.

What we’re doing is having a discussion with the intention of moving forward in terms of doing an assessment. The decision to transfer some of the responsibility for social housing to ECE has been in place now for several years. The decision was made in 2005. We believe it’s high time that we took a step back and did an assessment to see how well it’s working, what are the benefits, what are the pros and cons of doing it this way.

Somebody mentioned today in their statement, where is the proof that this is going well? There are a lot of things that we could point to probably that were probably difficulties in getting this in place. There are other things that we can point to that are doing well. This has allowed, as the Member has indicated, for more people to be hired through ECE. They’re allowed to expand the area that they service by face-to-face meeting rather than having the region deliver some of the programs. Through the economies of scale they are able to do more. We have to be able to measure that.

The Minister of ECE and I are working on developing a terms of reference. We’re looking at signing an agreement so that we can go out and do an independent review. We’re not quite at that stage yet, but there is still some more discussion to take place, but that was our intention.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

I’d maybe like to ask the Minister if he would do his own internal review regarding the housing authorities in our communities and see exactly what the problems are that they are dealing with in regard to getting the rent supp payments

back from ECE on a timely manner so that they don’t find themselves running into a deficit or basically that their cost of O and M on those units are out of line with actually what their payroll is. I’d like to ask the Minister if there are any plans to do an internal review from the Housing Corporation’s point of view on the transfer. Has it worked, hasn’t it worked from the Housing Corporation’s perspective?

We are probably more in a position to analyze the situation as it really has direct bearing on the operations of our LHOs. The ability to collect rent, as I mentioned earlier, is a big part of the operation that the LHO has to utilize as a budget. Our budget now, after some difficulties for a period of roughly two years, we’re back to the level of rent collections that we had been at historically. So we’re quite comfortable now that most of the people are stable in terms of knowing where and how the system and paper flow is working. We don’t expect it to change all that much over the next while.

There is still and always will be, no matter if it’s this process or the Housing Corporation did all the analysis and collection by itself, including setting the rent scales, will be the challenge of collecting rent. There are people out there that refuse to declare their income. That was there before. That’s going to stay there at any rate, no matter how we set it up. That seems to be an issue we will always be struggling with. My solution or objective is to provide good information, show how the calculations are made, show how the money is being utilized, and educate the people who are in our public housing units.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of ECE with regard to the rental subsidy that was transferred over to his department. Our goal as the government is to improve the lives of our people. I don’t believe our goal is for harmonization, which means channelling or herding people over to one central area. It makes life difficult. The Minister spoke about the assessment. That’s something that’s been ongoing for some time. We’ve been looking for it and asking for it. I’d like to know exactly what stage this assessment is at. It may be internal but, at the same time, how much public focus is he going to give this assessment?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. We do have data, of course, over the last four years of what we’ve done to date; improvement in certain areas. Since the transfer there’s been a greater number of computer assessments to date and improved LHO collection of rent. As Minister Michael McLeod indicated, there has been some progress made on the rent collection. As the Minister also indicated, we are analyzing our assessment area and relooking at our shop of one-stop shop where we’re at today, where we’ve been, and where we’re going with it. Certainly those are the areas that we need to highlight on a moving-forward basis.

Both Ministers, the Minister of Housing as well, keep talking about good news, but that’s not what we’re hearing in the communities. They’re asking for us to give them time, but we’ve done a motion about a year ago as well and they indicated then that they’ll look at the Rental Subsidy Program. For me, I believe that the transfer went to the wrong department. I believe it should have stayed in Housing. Just as an example, how is the income assessment for housing different from income assessment or just regular income support?

Each client is different in the regions. We talk about the one-stop shop with all the rental subsidies, the child care in different areas. Certainly some individuals have three or four accessible subsidies, so it’s convenient for them. So this is an area that we showed interest in to allow as much information as we can. Not only that, we are reaching out to the communities now. Since I met with Minister Michael McLeod of the Housing Corporation, how can we make a difference in the communities. Just updating on the clients and potential clients that we have out there, the detailed information on program delivery. The subsidies are available. Some community members are not fully aware of the subsidies that we offer. So I’ve instructed my department to be out there, visible, more visible in the communities. They are doing that. They’ve gone to Behchoko, as an example. They’ll be going to other regions as well and providing more detailed information. I think that’s required. We’re not just...They call us a welfare department. We provide the subsidy area and the money is there. The funding is available to offset the rental. So that is the area that we focus on with our department. Mahsi.

When the program was with the Housing Corporation, Mr. Speaker, it was administratively simpler. People showed up with income statements. They were assessed rent of

$500 or $600 per month based on income and a few other parameters, but now they are going to income support, Mr. Speaker. Right off the bat we are charging them economic rent, which is something I disagree with because that is $1,200 or $1,400 per unit when the market rent is about $1,000 or $1,100. Just once again, is there a difference in income assessment for housing clients as opposed to accessing the other income support programs? Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, when the transfer came into play, we did not make any changes. How it was delivered through LHOs and what it comes down to now, public housing rental subsidy, the policy and rules were developed by the NWT Housing Corporation so we continue with that trend. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, information has been requested by LHOs at that time. We still continue with that today. It has always been there. It always will be there because we have to follow certain policies. Not just on policies but on subsidies, there are requirements to qualify for subsidies. That is the area that we will continue to work with. Mahsi.

With the research that the Minister has done to date, can the Minister say with certainty that this program is working for him and his department? Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, we did do an income assistance client satisfaction survey: 76.7 percent of the response was satisfied with the outcome of the assistance, 10.3 percent said they are satisfied. So 76 percent is the number we are using. Just recently, December, January, we did a conductor survey. It just goes to show it is working in the community. We continue to improve our service in how we deliver programs in the communities, Mr. Speaker. We will continue to work with the standing committees, with the Minister of the Housing Corporation. There is always room for improvement. I would like to hear ideas from Members, as well, on how we can improve in certain areas. Mahsi.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For those who benefit from the free housing for seniors, I do apologize, but, Mr. Speaker, there are many other seniors out there in our communities who do not enjoy the benefit of enough support from this government with respect to living independently in their senior years in the Northwest

Territories. It was in the 13th Assembly that this

government decided to introduce a policy that would see seniors in public housing over the age of 60 pay zero rent, contribute nothing towards the cost of their units. Could the Minister of Housing please tell me what the rationale was behind that policy? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Michael McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That decision was made many years ago. The intention behind that decision was to ease the burden of the high cost of living in the Northwest Territories. At the time, the focus was on the small communities. Mr. Speaker, since that time, the seniors are the fastest growing segment of our population across the North. We have experienced in the last 15 years, according to our records, 75 percent in the area of more seniors than we did historically. That is becoming the challenge. It is another issue that is facing us for review. The Minister of ECE and I have had some informal discussions. We will continue to look at that decision, but there is a growing concern in this area. The initial intention was to ease the cost of living for seniors in the Northwest Territories.

That is a very noble intent to ease the burden of the cost of living in the North for seniors over 60. If that is the intent of the government, why would you take a small portion of seniors in a market community and give them everything and give the vast majority of seniors living in their own homes, struggling with the high cost of living, nothing? How would the Minister say or rationalize how that policy that has been left in place...It is good to say it is being reviewed, but it has been left in place and the number of seniors is growing. Why, if that was the intent and real purpose of this government, would they not make that an equitable distribution of resources on the part of this government? Thank you.