This is page numbers 5493 - 5530 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was territories.

Topics

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the same thought of the AIP and the draft agreement that has been put forward for consideration by us as Members, by leadership out there in our regions, by aboriginal governments, Mr. Speaker, the AIP, the agreement-in-principle that the Premier and Deputy Premier will travel to Edmonton to discuss with aboriginal leaders and regional leaders tonight. When we leave here, they will go down there. Mr. Speaker, will the signing of that agreement conclude our negotiations or is this just the beginning? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It will not conclude the discussions. In fact, I believe it will be the place for those future discussions and concerns that are being raised since the airing by CBC of the draft agreement-in-principle that it allows, in fact, to bring closure to those concerns that are being raised.

It is a continuation process. It is not the final step in decision-making. In fact, I believe the future Government of the Northwest Territories and the future aboriginal governments within a number of years will have to make a final decision as to that final agreement that would have to come forward. Thank you.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, by the signing of the agreement-in-principle -- which is exactly what it is called, as the Premier has described -- put us as Northerners in a better position to put some detail and some real parameters to what we will have as a government when devolution and resource revenue... We can talk about it now at this stage. We can talk about it after the agreement-in-principle is signed. What is the advantage of the agreement-in-principle in terms of our relationship with Ottawa and seeing some advancement on this agreement? Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Mr. Speaker, I think the history would show that there are a number of times in the history of the Northwest Territories that we knew and grew up with that the governments, aboriginal and public government, have come to a place -- sometimes it has been just aboriginal governments -- of a decision needing to be made. There has been much reference at times to the Dene-Metis comprehensive process, the Northern

Accord. Those got to the place, I believe, where the AIP is now, but never got the ratification to go the next step. They were referred to many times, but there was no vote to say yes, we will go forward on this basis. There were discussions. There were memorandums of intent, but never got beyond that. That is the place we are today with this AIP. It is the process we would go to the final set of negotiations and then a final decision being made by the governments of the North, aboriginal and public. Thank you.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, embarking on a regime and on an agreement with Ottawa of this magnitude, of this significance, of this importance to the people of the Northwest Territories, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier if, when he attends this meeting tonight, he will extend to all leaders of governments of the Northwest Territories the sentiment and respect of this House that we are concerned about moving forward together with a unified voice and extend to them the message that we are mature enough that we should trust each other enough to be able to embark on this thing that has been sought for so long. Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Mr. Speaker, absolutely. As I meet with the aboriginal leadership this evening, we will express the fact that we want to continue to work together with an approach that is focused from the North for Northerners. Right now there are many examples, even in a statement earlier today, about decisions being made in Ottawa that have a direct impact on Northerners; the work on regulatory reform by the special negotiator named by a Minister in Ottawa. Those things are ongoing today and will affect land claims as they are written. We are working on a process together to say, let’s go hand in hand, arm in arm and move forward on this agreement-in-principle where, for example, Chapter 6 was jointly written by aboriginal governments and the Government of the Northwest Territories.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I noted in the devolution process, there is also, I believe it is Section 12 of that agreement which clearly identified that this government could not remove itself from federal obligations in which the obligations the federal government has under ensuring that those commitments they make under land claims agreements have to be fulfilled and that they are not going to be basically simply diminished. I think that is the concern of a lot of the

aboriginal groups that do have land claims. We have economic measures. We have surface resource sections. We have protected areas. We have things in agreement that this government has an obligation to implement, but refuses to. I think that is the issue that aboriginal people have. How can we trust the government, yet on the existing land claim agreements where obligations are clearly spelled out in black and white, they are not being fulfilled? I would like to ask the Premier, in light of his comments that the aboriginal groups aren’t going to get anything more than what they have in their land claims agreement, is that the position of this government?

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s interesting the Member would take comments I said in discussing this draft agreement and twist them to match what he would like to present to the public of the Northwest Territories. Let’s be factual here. The fact is I stated to Members, and I will state here for the public, the land claims that have been signed are protected. The language of the AIP will continue to honour that protection. In fact, the AIP has it on the table. The aboriginal governments helped write the one very important chapter that will create the ongoing government-to-government relationship in the future with aboriginal governments. The existing claims in place -- and the Member is well aware of it because he was at those tables when they were put in place -- the fact is that there is a resource revenue sharing component to those land claims, and they are signed, and they are being honoured, and they are receiving resource throughout that agreement. The AIP would bring additional monies to the tables not only for the GNWT but for the aboriginal governments as well.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, the whole intention of the land claim agreements, the devolution of process is to enhance the land claim agreements to give the aboriginal response in regards to lands and resource responsibility of the Northwest Territories, but ownership of those resources of the Northwest Territories and to take part of the political and social development in the Northwest Territories. Without those enhancements, the Dene-Metis would have never signed the agreements that we have today, because we have settled for arrangement that we will take a share of resource revenue sharing throughout the Mackenzie Valley over and above what is in the land claim agreements and negotiate through the devolution process. That wording is not in the existing agreement. It makes reference to the Inuvialuit to be able to negotiate with government for resource arrangements in the Beaufort Sea. It doesn’t say that about the Dene-Metis. Why is that not in the agreement?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

The fact of the matter is -- and I can repeat almost word for word as the Member just spoke -- that the land claims have written in them resource revenue sharing arrangements with the federal government. The fact that what the Northern Accord may have stated is one thing that they never got ratified. It hit a certain point and there it sits. The land claims now hold the legal status of that. The agreement-in-principle now takes it to the next step where in fact if we were to sign this and go forward and agree, the governments-of-the-day, sign an agreement, a final agreement, there would be further sharing of the resource revenues that now go to Ottawa. Thank you.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Again, wording -- what’s in the agreement, what’s not in the agreement -- in the 1988 agreement, the devolution process was the enabling agreement signed between the federal government and the Government of the Northwest Territories to spell out exactly how the aboriginal obligations were going to be transferred. Again, that wording is not in this agreement. So why is that wording, which was used in the Dene-Metis claim and the land claims agreement to date, not entrenched in this agreement that you’re trying to sign off with the federal government?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

The fact that we used the land claims agreements that are signed today, we used the Tlicho Agreement that is signed and today they’re protected, Section 35, we have sat down with aboriginal, technical negotiators as well to come up with the language that sees the further protection of those rights going forward in a government-to-government relationship. Today’s environment, we use those terms rather loosely of government-to-government. This agreement-in-principle and a final agreement would in fact make that an absolute reality.

I think, as we listen to the history of the North, to the people today, and to the aboriginal leadership of today, and to the Government of the Northwest Territories, we all want to do the same thing, and that is bring control and the rewards from development to Northerners. That’s what we’re talking about. This is not take land away from anybody else or the controls. This is to respect those, and the places where there is Crown land now administered by the federal government, in a day where a final agreement is in place, would be administered by northern governments. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Your final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I’d like to ask the Premier why in the land claim agreements we specifically state that the Government of the Northwest Territories shall consult the aboriginal groups in regard to oil and gas and devolution in the Northwest Territories and

why aboriginal groups have written letters to the Minister, which have been sitting on his desk for seven months? Is that the way that we deal with aboriginal governments when we make reference that this government shall consult and we’ve put the letters on the side table and, what, wait for the time to run out? Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

We could use up the rest of this time period and go over in fine detail all of the meetings held, all the information shared and the actual face-to-face meetings. The letter the Member is talking about, and he’s raised already on a number of occasions, we’re showing Members our responses. The responses will go out. Meetings have been held and will continue to be held. The fact is, consultation is happening, has happened, and will continue to happen. What is the fear that is really there or is it really a monetary issue that needs to be discussed? All of these things, I believe, the majority of those things can be dealt with as we decide to take the next step. That is go forward in a final set of negotiations and clear up the air and take authority back to where it belongs, and that is home to the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

---Applause

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Finance Minister and it gets back to my Member’s statement where I was talking about our Member of Parliament, Mr. Dennis Bevington, who this week is trumpeting his borrowing limit Bill C-530 to his counterparts in Ottawa in the House of Commons. It got me to thinking, Mr. Speaker -- and the rest of the residents here in the Northwest Territories are giving this a lot of thought today as well -- does this Cabinet endorse Bill C-530 in its current form? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Minister responsible for Finance, Mr. Michael Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Minister of Finance

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I read the news clips with interest this morning and the comments from the Member of Parliament as he looks to the future in the Northwest Territories as a maturing political jurisdiction. On the other hand, I noticed the comment from the Member for Kam Lake that said this government is not ready, we’re not old enough, we’re not mature enough, we’re not wise enough to handle any more money, let’s throw out an anchor

and let’s throw this whole process down, which is an unfortunate comment.

The Member of Parliament is elected by the people of the Northwest Territories in a general election. He doesn’t answer to this Assembly, he answers to the people of the Northwest Territories. He has tools at his disposal to advance causes that he sees as important to the development of the Northwest Territories, some that we share in common with him. The Member of Parliament had the good grace to contact us, to consult with us, to indicate to us what he was doing, ask for our feedback and our thoughts, which we gave him. But it should be very clear here in this House, he doesn’t answer to us, we don’t answer to him, and he’s doing what he thinks is necessary as a Member of Parliament. We have the common goal in mind to advance the interests of the Northwest Territories to be treated as a mature, evolving political jurisdiction and I hope that all Members would be supportive of that. We’re engaged in a process with the federal government in terms of reviewing our borrowing limits that we’re committed to, and we’ve indicated that to the Member. Thank you.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Yes, that’s right. I remember Parliament does answer to the people of the Northwest Territories. This Minister and this Cabinet answer to us, we represent the people here in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, I support moving forward with the AIP; I’ve said that unequivocally. I support that. What I don’t support is us seeking more ways to spend money. Mr. Speaker, I’ve gone on record as saying this before and I’ll say it again for the Minister: I’m not sure exactly what it costs to service a debt of around $500 million in a Territory of 42,000 people, but my estimate, Mr. Speaker, is around $35 million to $40 million. If you double that, almost double that to over $900 million, that’s going to take money away from programs and services that we provide to the people of the Northwest Territories.

I’d like to ask the Finance Minister if his department has done any analysis on what having a debt in the neighbourhood of $900 million would do to the finances of this Territory. Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Minister of Finance

We’ve informed Members of what’s happening with the borrowing limit, that there’s a review underway with federal Finance and the three territories to review the borrowing limits that are currently in place, which are different between the three territories. It’s a common issue for the three territories. Our borrowing limit is currently $575 million. About $450 million of that is self-liquidating, because it’s being paid down through the Power Corp and the Housing Corporation, and the Deh Cho Bridge will be generating its own revenues. We have to recognize that. We’re looking for a review that

recognizes that we have those extenuating circumstances.

We have not spent any time, nor do we intend to, to analyze the content of the Member of Parliament’s bill. We’ve indicated to him that while we appreciate what he is trying to achieve in advancing the cause of the North, we as a government have already started a process with the federal government and the other two territories that we are fully engaged in and intend to see to completion. Thank you.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

If Bill C-530 does pass, within two months that would increase the borrowing limit of the Government of the Northwest Territories to somewhere in the neighbourhood of $900 million and if the Minister of Finance hasn’t done the work, the analysis of what our spending would get us, the $900 million, what that would do to our finances going forward, then again, I think we’re missing something here. I’d like to ask the Minister if he could share with the Members of this House any official correspondence he’s had with the Member of Parliament on Bill C-530.