Thank you, Mr. Chair. The committee would like to consider Minister's Statement 158-18(3), Developments in Early Childhood Programs and Services. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Testart. Does committee agree?

I understand that the Minister has some opening comments that she would... No? There are no opening comments. The Minister's statement itself, I guess, is like opening comments. I understand the Minister has witnesses she would wish to bring into the Chamber. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber, and Minister, you may take a seat at the witness table.

Thank you, Committee. For those who are a little confused, generally, when a Minister's statement is discussed in Committee of the Whole, Members are just allowed to speak on it for 10 minutes as an item under discussion, but the Minister has been gracious enough to invite witnesses in and sit at the witness table and answer questions, is my understanding. Is that correct, Minister Cochrane?

Absolutely correct, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Consensus government at work. Minister, would you please introduce your witnesses to the Chamber.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my right, I have Mr. John MacDonald. He is the assistant deputy minister for education and culture. On my left, I have Shelley Kapraelian, who is the director of early childhood development. I brought them as witnesses in case there is any more in-depth information that they can provide. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. As per the rules of the Assembly, each Member will be allotted 10 minutes to speak to the item under consideration. The Member can ask the Minister questions and, if the Minister wishes, the Minister may respond. I will go to committee if there are any comments. We will begin with Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My thanks to the Minister and her staff for appearing today to answer some questions about her ministerial statement on early childhood programs and services. There are a couple of different issues that I want to address in here. I am going to start with licensed childcare. When we started in this Assembly, there were 10 communities that didn't have any licensed childcare programs. It is my understanding that, today, we have 11 communities without childcare programs. Can the Minister confirm that 11 communities is the right number? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Currently, yes, there are 11 communities that don't have licensed childcare provision. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Minister reported on October 31^st that the department was working diligently in the 11 communities to find providers for childcare. Six months on, it doesn't sound like there has been any progress. Can the Minister describe what the barriers are to bringing more childcare into the small communities? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There are a number of issues that affect bringing licensed childcare into communities. We don't keep records of unlicensed childcare, so I have to state that. There are a lot of communities that use their aunties, grandmothers, et cetera. Those ones, we don't record. There are two that I can think of right now, Fort Liard and Tsiigehtchic, came on. Sometimes, you get a licensed childcare centre, and then they don't get the staff properly. There were some internal issues with the community, family issues with communities. Sometimes, they fall apart. The reality is, in smaller communities, the challenge is often the number of children. We have some communities that only have six children, total, in schools. Children who are of the daycare age might only be a couple. That deters from the community wanting to do a licensed childcare.

The other issue is, in small communities, you have to look at the economic development, the number of jobs. Often, it is one person at the municipal and one person at the Indigenous governments. There might be 10 people in the community, I am just giving a number, who might be employed. That also impacts the number of children who would need that service and the amount of interest in the communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, I appreciate the Minister's point on that. On October 31^st, she stated that the department was then working with Norman Wells and Enterprise. Could she tell us what happened with those negotiations or with those meetings? Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Kapraelian.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you very much for that information. The Minister just mentioned Fort Liard and Tsiigehtchic, so what progress is being made there to provide licensed childcare? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Fort Liard is now operational, with a licensed daycare provider. Tsiigehtchic was open for a total of one month and, at this moment, is having some internal issues, I would say. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Yes. Thank you very much. That is very disappointing, obviously. The previous Minister of this department decided to allocate the bulk of the bilateral funding from the federal government to training staff and giving grants to staff to supplement their wages. Can the Minster tell us what uptake there has been on the increased number of scholarships and grants available to people training as early childhood development staff? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. To clarify, the bulk of the money from the bilateral wasn't all put into training. It was given out through a variety of early childhood intervention programming. Of the money, I think that it was wise of the previous Minister. It is not only about getting licensed childcare; it is actually having the credentials. The Minister before me realized that was an issue, and so instituted the change to the one-year early childhood development program from one year to actually a two-year program and moved from 10 scholarships to 30 scholarships. At this point, my belief is that there is 19 scholarships that have been accessed through this program. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you. Just to clarify, my understanding was there were 30 scholarships per year. Is the Minister saying that there are 19 per year, or 19 over what period of time? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do need to clarify my last answer. The last time I had seen a briefing note, it was 19, but we are actually up to 26 now. The total number of scholarships is 30 scholarships available a year, and we are at 26 as of today. They are given out in the fall. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is good news that people do want to take up this training. I wonder, without opening additional daycares, what all these additional trained early childhood development staff workers will be doing. What is the outlook for employment in this field? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There is a high demand, actually, for people who are licensed, who have the qualifications for early childhood development. I know that from personal experience. My previous job before I came into the Assembly, I operated a non-profit organization that had a daycare facility. Of that daycare, only one person had the qualifications, which leaves daycares in jeopardy around supervision of children, around capacity of getting people, and parents' concerns.

Is it okay that we have children in licensed daycare providers' homes that we are paying good money for, that the government is supplementing with taxpayers' money, and that they don't have the training that is necessary to provide appropriate early childhood intervention? I think this is well-spent money. I know that, in Yellowknife alone, our demand is huge. I am hoping that, in every community, people not just see daycares as babysitters, because they are more than babysitters. They are our hope for the future. It is early childhood development versus babysitting. Therefore, we need to advocate that people get trained in this and that we have qualified people. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Ms. Green.

Thank you. I appreciate the Minister's passion for the training, and I agree that it is very important. What I just can't get my head around, though, is where these 26 new licensed staff are going to go. It is my understanding that, while there is lots of demand for childcare, there is not very much supply, so where does the Minister see these people going? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister, one minute on the clock.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My hope is that a lot of these people actually return to their communities and offer licensed daycare provision, recognizing that not all daycare providers are licensed centres. We are also looking for the smaller communities to get licensed day homes. Then, of course, like I had said, there is always, in Yellowknife, a huge demand. The turnover is huge. Again, my previous experience is that a lot of people who do get the early childhood development go on. They look at other occupations. They move into schools. They apply for government jobs. They sometimes go into social work, my own background. The turnover is high, and we need to make sure that we have qualified people. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Thirty seconds, Ms. Green.

Yes. The mandate commits the department to create childcare that is available and affordable by showing us a plan about how that is going to be achieved. Could the Minister update us on the status of that plan? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our department is just finalizing our draft. In fairness, I have not seen it myself. We are expecting that that plan will be tabled and presented to committee or offered to committee in August, at the next sitting. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Time has expired. Next on the list is Mr. Vanthuyne.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank the Minister for what has been outlined in the Minister's statement. I appreciate the ongoing work that the Minister and the department are doing in early childhood.

However, the statement indicates a lot of good things as a relates to programming, it relates a lot of good things from age four on, but a lot of this may be for naught if we cannot invest in zero-to-three in the right way, as well. The Minister is aware that, of course, absolutely the basic needs of families and communities is to be able to take care of their children, and the Minister is aware of a circumstance in my riding that happened late last year, where a daycare closed suddenly and there were 30 families, I believe about 42 kids, who were kind of scrambling to find an alternative for daycare, but they clearly had no options. A lot of the daycare facilities within the city, brand new ones, in fact, have waiting lists of over 100 kids.

The department has stated in the past that it does not want to interfere in the private-market-driven industry of daycare, but I am here to tell you that the private market is not providing daycare spaces. Our communities are simply too small to generate a business case for the private market to invest in, and there is no return on investment; the building and fire codes are a big challenge, and so there is nobody who is going to put an investment into the market of getting into the daycare business.

Clearly, in my view, there just will not be the required daycare spaces that we need without a government commitment to new capital for infrastructure funding. I am not talking about programming anymore. I am not talking about services anymore. I am talking about the department starting to identify a need for investment in capital infrastructure. I am of the belief that, once these structures are in place, that these assets are in place, that these daycares in place, that NGOs and parent organizations can start to organize to be able to operate them, but they are not going to put the investment into the bricks and mortar.

We know that, for sure, there is a dire need for infrastructure. We know that there are big waiting lists. We know that there are 11 communities without daycares. We know that this is also driving families or parents to have to take kids to unlicensed daycares, and, of course, we do not want to see that. We are a government that puts hundreds of millions of dollars into our healthcare infrastructure. We have done a lot of that in recent years. We are putting a lot of money into junior kindergarten as well as schools and Aurora College for our education infrastructure. However, we have seemingly no vision, much less commitment to capital investment, in daycare infrastructure.

The Minister is well aware of a recent request. We are grateful for the support on that request. That shows that little pockets of money can go to improving an existing asset to help get that asset up to code so that we can turn it or convert it into a daycare. That can happen in many of the communities. The Housing Corporation in fact owns a lot of assets in communities that are borderline boarded up, not because they are necessarily derelict, but because maybe they do not have enough people to fulfill programming, so maybe that could be a building that could be considered to be converted over into daycare.

Essentially what I would like to do is just simply ask the Minister what her views are around this and does she recognize that this actually is a dire situation that we have as it relates to supporting daycares? Will the Minister start to have discussions with her department, with stakeholders, with parents and others about what the department and what the Government of the Northwest Territories might be able to do to start investing in daycare infrastructure, similar to schools, similar to healthcare facilities? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will start by saying, definitely, there is a need for infrastructure for daycares. It is not in our program mandates at this time. I think it is something that we need to look at in the next Assembly. It's the end of this one. It's a couple of months left. However, I think it's bigger than that. I mean, thinking in the box says: give me a building, and I can make a daycare. However, I want to challenge it a little bit.

When I first took over the position of Minister of Education in April last year, my issue was not just about daycares. I talked about residential schools, and I talked about the drop-outs in schools and the absentees, the issues of parents even getting their children to school, which is a huge issue in our communities, some of the smaller ones. Again, I have been accused of being a visionary, and I often say, "What's the good of a politician without a vision?"

My vision actually, and that was from April last year, was that any new build in smaller communities of schools, we should be looking at those schools as hubs, not just the literacy and numeracy, which we need, but also having a place like we did with housing, that the health department can stop in, so nurses can do immunizations, so that we can have a daycare, maybe Aboriginal Head Start, within the school, so changing the dynamic, making the schools the hubs of communities so that people who have been traumatized by the residential schools, by our own systems of schools, will break down those barriers and they will actually start looking at schools in a positive light.

What I am saying is that that's not going to happen overnight. We have 20-year plans in capital, but what I am saying is that we need to challenge our own beliefs on what daycares look like and think outside the box. We need to look at infrastructure where we can for buildings, standalone, but we also need to look, in my opinion, as schools as hubs of communities to deal with the issues, multitude of issues, that we have with helping children to succeed. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Geez, you know, I really appreciate where the Minister went with this a little bit. There could be some means to build some infrastructure in communities or at least support communities to put some infrastructure in place like I described earlier, like maybe an existing housing unit, NWT Housing Corporation unit, could be converted, that sort of thing, those are things that could be done, say, in the next couple, handful, of years, especially in those eleven communities that have no daycares, and it would be, in the big picture, it would be nominal kind of expenditure that could go a long way.

However, why don't we have schools that have all-in inclusive from zero-to-12, like from age zero-to-three, which has built-in daycare? We are building a number of schools. We just finished the Ecole Allain St-Cyr. We are going to build a brand new J.H. Sissons. I mean why can't a parent who has a kid who's going to be from junior kindergarten on, who also might have a zero-to-three-year-old, not be able to drop the two kids off at the same facility rather than having to go to a daycare, licensed or unlicensed, somewhere across town and then having to go over here to drop their child off for school or make arrangements for the child to get onto a bus? I mean why can't schools be a multi-age, all-inclusive, daycare-to-grade-12 type vision? I don't see. Again, there might have to be certain regulations and certain zones where certain kids can go at certain times and others can't sort of thing, for safety reasons or what have you.

Is this something that you are looking towards? Is this the type of visioning that you are talking about, is that the future of schooling could be all-in, multiuse facilities for all age groups? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, yes, my vision is all-inclusive and not just zero-to-12, but the community. I have had Aboriginal governments that have approached me and said, "Can we partner in communities so that the school is not only for children but it's our community events in the evenings and the weekends happening there, as well?" So I think more people are getting onboard to make the idea of school communities as hubs.

However, again, not one size fits all, and we have to be careful with that. We have to try it slowly as a pilot because, some communities, we might open it and say, "Great idea," and then we have one child who is one year old, and then how do you pay that worker? So these are issues that we have to look at very carefully, but I do think that we have to think outside the box and we have to address not only the daycare, but the whole idea on how people are seeing our education system.

Education is a lifelong process. It is not just JK-to-12, and, as long as we keep saying "JK-to-12," we are not even acknowledging that it's lifelong, so I think we need to change the way we talk, the way we think, and then we have to try new ideas, recognizing the flexibility in each community. Yes, that is an expansion of that answer. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Five seconds on the clock. Nothing further from Mr. Vanthuyne. Next, we have Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. One of the points that I think is a bit troubling for me, more than a bit troubling, in the Minister's statement was the early development instrument results of, over a three-year period, vulnerability rates actually increased from 38 percent to 42 percent. That is more than a 10-percent increase, which is probably statistically valid. What is going on? Thanks Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I remember, actually, when the first EDI was done a few years back. It was only six years ago, so I think some of that is baseline data, when you first start. I mean it's only been a couple of times that we have done this. I am hoping that it will get better. In all honestly, "what is going on" is the question we all need to be asking, so that is why we are working really closely with Health and Social Services on this issue. We are all concerned. It is not okay.

If our children went from 38 percent to 42 percent who have developmental deficiencies before they are ready for school, we need to address that. It's really difficult when a child comes into the school at JK or kindergarten and they are so far behind, so we need to bump up the services that we provide to preschool children all around. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think I heard from the Minister that we don't know what's causing this. What are the solutions, then? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, like I said, some of that is just the testing. It might get better as we go along. There are a multitude of variables. I mean, when I have talked to schools, they say "parents." When I talk to communities, they say "schools." It's not okay. It could be a multitude of things. It could be a child was born with some concerns. It could be lack of parental nurturing with that. It could be a lack of intervention in the communities. There are a hundred different variables that assess why a child is developmentally delayed, but the key to that is not about what's happening to that child. The key is actually asking: what are we doing?

We need to focus more on the early intervention before daycares because, by the time they get to daycares, I mean sometimes, the daycares, like we just talked about the skill levels. That is why we are working closely with Health and Social Services, as well, so that, hopefully, we can get better assessments when the children are born, when they go for immunizations, when they go to daycares, all around, that we can actually have earlier diagnoses and proper supports. I do think that all of the departments recognize that, and we are trying to bump up the occupational, the assets, the skills to support daycares throughout to help with that issue.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think I have really pushed the idea of midwifery in this Assembly, and I do want to compliment the Minister for making some progress on midwifery because I think that is a very important component of getting kids born into better families and making sure that we have healthier families right from the start.

Any study I have ever seen indicates that the most important period in a child's life is zero-to-three and that we can get the absolute biggest bang for our buck by spending money when a kid is zero-to-three, way better than roads, way better than roads. So how are we actually increasing our investment in early childhood zero-to-three over some of the other priorities that Cabinet has identified? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Whenever there is an issue that we approach Cabinet and we try to secure money for any new programs, et cetera, the reality is the economy is bad, we all know that, and so it's tight. We are doing our best. I mean it's not okay. We need to do that.

One thing I did not mention, and I just got a note from John MacDonald, actually, was that the other thing we are doing is because I believe that parenting courses have a lot to do with it, and it's not just parenting we have to tell people what to do; it's that social interaction that happens with that.

When I was a single mom, my first child and became a single mom, I did not know how to bathe my baby. I came from a home. I was a street kid at 13 years old. I had no idea how to bathe my baby. I was afraid of my baby. I was afraid of dropping him. I was afraid to tell anybody of anything. My child was almost four years old before I had that child assessed with Tourette syndrome. Even though I saw the visual signs, the movements, the motor ticks, et cetera, I did not want to see it. That, I do not think I am an abnormality. Especially people who have hard lives, we do not want to bring out any more things that are bad about us. We internalize enough.

So one thing I am excited that the department is doing, and it will take a few years, probably three years John has told me, is that we are looking at new classes, curriculum in schools to actually address parenting before they get out of school, because a lot of these people are young parents. I know it was a hard sell, and I may take some flack. I am okay with that. Just the same way it was important that we got sex education into schools, I think now is the time that it's important to talk about parenting in schools so that people, students, start to realize that having a baby is not just about keeping that person because I want to keep them for love. It's 20, often 30, years of serious commitment. Sorry, some of my colleagues understand the dilemma of that.

We have an obligation as society. We cannot make the assumption anymore that parents are getting that support from their grandparents, especially Indigenous children. People who have lost their parenting skills because of residential school, how can we expect them to automatically know how to parent without giving them those tools? So we have an obligation as society, and I am glad to say that education is moving towards that direction, that within a couple of years we will actually have parenting courses within schools. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. We were on Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think we got off on a bit of a tangent. I am father, too. Any of the studies I have seen about early childhood development investment, the payoff is 7 to 1, 10 to 1, way better than a road, way, way, better than a road. Can the Minister tell us: have we actually increased our spending on early childhood development in the course of the 18^th Assembly? Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I think you might have stumped them, Mr. O'Reilly.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are just trying to figure out if it's new money or old money. This year's investment into early childhood development is $11.6 million for 2019-2020; $8.9 million of that is from the GNWT, $2.6 million is from Canada, for a total of $11.6 million in investments. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I note I think we are spending $60 million on the Tlicho all-season road this year; spending on the Tuktoyaktuk road was $300 million over three years. I think I've made my case.

If we want to improve the future prospects of this territory, we have to put more money into early childhood development, case closed. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you. Again, the three-year total for the federal is $7 million, and two point something of that a year, so it's a three-year funding agreement.

You're right. I have to say the MLAs are right. We're not putting enough investment into early childhood development, but, as has been said by many Ministers at the table, our whole budget is $1.6 billion, or something like that, and there's not enough money to go around. I don't see that we should take all from one. I think maybe we need to look at the balance, but I do believe in balance. I believe that we need to have early childhood development, we need to have justice services, we need to have health services, housing programs, and we need infrastructure. Those highways actually bring economic development, and they bring jobs for communities. Not to say that I'd like to spend as much, but I do think that we need to look at a balance across all. It can't be one or the other. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly, your time has expired. Next, we have Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Minister is bringing up Tsiigehtchic here, and the community did identify one of their buildings, which they renovated. Everything was all set to go, but then, because we didn't get the attendance that's required, it seems that we lost our funding. So I think, in cases like this, we need to be more flexible. I know the community was estimating 15 to 20 children attending, but when we had only three to five at times, it all depends on the parents' schedules. If there's no work in the mornings, then they bring them in in the afternoon, but it seemed like the timing of ECE's staff is visiting the community, it seems to me they felt like there was inadequate attendance. It seems like that's what was the big holdup on all our funding.

In cases like this, will the Minister be more flexible with the community? It's creating jobs in the community, plus giving the children a good start, learning different things with the child care providers. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree with the Member, again. Tsiigehtchic is a good example of how we tried to go in there. The attendance was low, but it wasn't ECE that pulled the funding. It was a decision by the community. We're more than willing to go back in and reinstate the funding, but it's sustainability of programs. That's why I'm saying that we need to start looking outside the box. We need to look at different solutions, because right now we base it on head count, between $15-something a day up to $49 a day for children. $49 a day, $50 a day, is a pretty good supplement, and then parents do that on top. So it's a matter of equity. If we do that in Yellowknife, with the regional centres, and we pay $50 a day in Tsiigehtchic and they only have one child, that $50 a day might not make that person want to stay there, especially if the parent doesn't want to pay anything, which I've seen in some communities that they don't want to pay any money.

In the regional centres, especially Yellowknife, they're more used to it. A parent knows that, when they go to daycare, they have to pay up to $1,000 a month. That's an expectation, but the smaller communities aren't always on that. So, like I had said before, we need to be flexible. We need to look outside the box. I'm not willing to be unfair and say, okay, we'll pay 100 percent in one community and we'll only supplement another community, because that's not being equitable, but working with the communities closely and seeing how we can address their needs, and I'll go back to Enterprise, because it was brought up by MLA Green, Enterprise is one of the communities that had an issue. They thought outside the box. So when I was there, actually, they were saying that the smaller children, because it was Aboriginal Head Start versus JK, and that's how we started the conversation, so they said they were worried about Aboriginal Head Start being sustainable with the introduction of JK. We gave funding to the school for JK. The kids enroled, and then they didn't want to be in JK. Those children decided to go to Aboriginal Head start, so our JK there is empty.

What I did like about the Aboriginal Head Start, and that's thinking out of the box, is that a wonderful woman said that, "We take the younger children, too." So their Aboriginal Head Start is not defined by the parameters of the program; they've actually been flexible, and I think that's what I say, is that we need to look at each community individually and see how we can work to support those children. Does Enterprise now need a licensed daycare centre? Probably not. If they're numbers for Aboriginal Head Start are not full, like my understanding is, if they're accommodating the younger children, then why wouldn't we support that kind of programming?

Again, it's thinking outside the box. Each community is different, and we need to look at those communities, making sure that we have a lens that is equal. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Cochrane. Mr. Blake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just moving forward, the concern always comes up in the community to have a daycare and, moving forward, it seems like the Minister is leaning towards being a little more flexible of the rules, so I guess that's a good start, and we'll just take it from there. I'll hold her to her word. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Blake. Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to start off with a question for the Minister on junior kindergarten. Although junior kindergarten is not compulsive at this time, I was wondering if, when they do get into school and they are signed up, at that point does attendance become compulsory? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister.

Thank you. Attendance being compulsory is not something that I would actually commit to at this moment. The reason I'm not willing to commit to that is because we need to look at that. At my last education meeting with the superintendents and chairs of all the school boards across the Northwest Territories, I brought up the issue of attendance because it's a concern of mine, and I said that, in the next Assembly, we need to look at attendance because, if we can't get the kids to school, we're not going to be able to get them educated and they're not going to succeed.

One thing I did hear, and I believe it was the Tlicho Government, actually, that said to me, "We tried the truancy officer thing. It did not work." So that told me that I don't want to go to a system where attendance is mandatory, and all of a sudden we're locking up children or parents, because that will drive them underground more. So what we need to do is find a better way to support them. I don't know what that answer is, whether it's picking up children, knocking on doors. I know that some communities have done that, smaller communities. They've actually gone and knocked on doors. That might not be feasible in big communities, but we need to start thinking, again, outside the box. It needs to be a discussion. If we can't get the kids to the school, we can't help them succeed, so it is a huge concern that we need to address. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Cochrane. Mr. Beaulieu, anything further?

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't think I made myself clear. I'm asking if, once a junior kindergarten student has registered, does their attendance become compulsory like everybody else in the school? I'm going to make the assumption, whether you want to call it compulsory or mandatory, kids who enter kindergarten, grade one, two, three, to 12 or up to 10 or whatever, that attendance is mandatory. My question is: I recognize that junior kindergarten is not compulsory, but once they become students, is their attendance compulsory at that point?

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Right at the current time, junior kindergarten and kindergarten are not compulsory. We need to be flexible with them, and I'm not sure if we want to actually broach on making them compulsory because we need the flexibility to be able to work with communities such as communities that have Aboriginal Head Start. I'm an advocate of Aboriginal Head Start. I think it's a great program. They've asked us to be flexible in the programming, so some programs like Fort Providence are not even doing their JK. Actually, they're doing just the Aboriginal Head Start. Other places are having Aboriginal Head Start in the schools. Other places are doing half-time junior kindergarten and half-time Aboriginal Head Start. Some people are just doing JK. We need that flexibility because no community is the same. Each community has unique situations, and we need to work with the communities where they are to address their needs to provide services for children. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, could you clarify? If a child enrols in junior kindergarten, is that child's attendance then compulsory? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. No child who is enroled in junior kindergarten or kindergarten is it compulsory that they attend. It's an optional programming, both of them. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a real issue with that. I recognize that people have the option to put their children in junior kindergarten or kindergarten. Once they make the decision to go to junior kindergarten, or send their children to junior kindergarten or kindergarten, once they make that decision in September and the kid enrols in school, then the Minister is saying that kid can come and go as they please throughout the whole year; that, if they want to attend two or three days a month, that's still okay. I think we have to nail down that first before we start talking about even the early development instrument. I think the early development instrument, I believe, is actually something that occurs in February of kindergarten year. How do we keep track of these if the kids who sign up to go to school, then, once they're enroled in school, are free to come and go as they please? I'm wondering what the policy is around that? That doesn't sound correct to me. I'd like to just look for clarification on that at this point. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. At this point, anyone who is in junior kindergarten, it is an optional program. They don't have to be there. They can have the flexibility. Like I said, some are in half days, some are full days, some don't even choose. Not every child who is four years old is in junior kindergarten in the Northwest Territories.

I'd be a little bit leery to say that, once you enrol, that's it, you're locked in, and you have to be there every day, because I'm not sure if that's the intent. We've had kindergarten in the Northwest Territories. I'm 58 years old, and we had kindergarten. I remember when I think it came in, like 50 years ago. Kindergarten has never been compulsory, so I'm not sure why we would be expecting that we would turn it into a compulsory JK and kindergarten. Children who are four years old are pretty sensitive. Do we want to say that, or do we want to be able to have the flexibility that, if that four-year-old child is feeling like staying at home with mom or dad or grandma, that they have that option to do that without being penalized? We have to look at the developmental assets of that age cohort, as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thought this was a real simple question because I wanted to lead onto something else, but I've spent my entire time trying to determine whether or not, once a student is four years old or five years old and they're put in school, once they are enroled, do they have to attend? I recognize that they don't have to enrol them. That's very clear to me. My question is, once they're enroled, do they have to attend? That's a simple question. Either yes, they have to attend, or no, they don't have to attend. They can come every second Friday if they want. Whatever the response is, I just need a response so I can move onto my actual question. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister.

I thought I was clear. For clarification, Mr. Chair, any child who is in junior kindergarten or kindergarten is not compelled to be in school. It is not a mandatory requirement, although we try to work with the parents, and encourage them to attend. Any child from Grade 1 to 12 is mandatory to be in that. There are some repercussions for it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Beaulieu.

I don't understand what is so difficult about my question. I know that junior kindergarten and kindergarten is not compulsory. I know that the students can stay at home if they want to. I know that the parents don't have to enrol them in school if they don't have to. My question is, once they make the decision to enrol the four-year-olds and five-year-olds into school, into junior kindergarten and kindergarten, is it compulsory that they attend like everybody else from 1 to 12?

The Minister just stated that it is not compulsory for kindergarten and junior kindergarten the way it is for grades 1 to 12. That's what the Minister just stated.

Mr. Chairman, I've used up all my time, but once a junior kindergarten student has enroled, we'll just stick with one of the groups, okay, the junior kindergartens. Once they're enroled, then after they've enroled in September, then after that, they can come and go as they please? It's no longer compulsory? I recognize that it's not compulsory for them to enrol, but once they enrol, do they have to attend school? That's my question.

The answer is no, they don't have to attend once they've enroled. That's what the Minister has stated. That's correct, yes. Given that information, I will let you have a follow-up question, Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. No wonder it doesn't work. I mean, no wonder it doesn't work. I mean, they enrol in school, and then they don't have to attend. That's very strange. My question was to be, when we're dealing with five-year-olds and four-year-olds who are in school, does the funding that's targeted in inclusive schooling also apply to four-year-olds and five-year-olds? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, the inclusive schooling money is applied to the junior kindergarten and the kindergarten, the four- and five-year-olds. I do want to clarify, Mr. Chair, that I feel that it's unfair to say that junior kindergarten is not working. We just started. This is the second time that we have actually done the results. The first one was six years ago. We just had the baseline data. We don't even know how correct that was. We just implemented junior kindergarten across the Northwest Territories in the last couple of years. It's really premature to say that the program is not working. Lots of research says that early childhood development programming does work, whether children are there every day or not. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. We have 10 more minutes, and we have two speakers left, so I will allow Mr. Thompson to go. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will try to be quick. Can the Minister tell us what percentage of the enrolments are for fours and fives in our system? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry, I can't give you a percentage of the total children in JK or kindergarten compared to all the other students. I don't have that on hand at the moment. I can get it, if it is a request. I can say that the enrolment currently for junior kindergarten is 552 children. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My next question is: when we have junior kindergarten and kindergarten, are they part of the funding formally that we have presently? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is correct. They are fully funded under the funding formula that we have now. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Attendance is very important come September until October. They are part of the funding formula. How is this fair if they don't have a requirement to be in school? To me, we shouldn't have them as part of the funding formula. I think they should be left out because they have the option to come and go as they please and as the parents please, which I understand. They are part of the funding formula, so if you register 35 kids in junior kindergarten on September 1^st and the attendance is sporadic and you want the school boards to be honest about it, we are going to see a decline in attendance. That is my question: how do we identify this? How can we fix this so that it is not part of the funding formula? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Any student who is not attending from JK right to grade 12, the teacher is expected to actually try to reach out and to try to find out what is going on with that child. That is just good practice. It is not a policy or an act, but it is good practice. I believe teachers act well. The funding formula works that way for all. That is why I said we need to revise that. We need to look at it, so we are researching it now. We need to relook at that funding formula because it is not only JK.

Any student who enrols in September, whether they leave and they enrol in Sissons and they go the Catholic school or they go to Behchoko or they go to any other community, they go down south, that child is included in the funding formula because of September. Anyone at the end of September, so that is not just JK. It is not only the issue that we need to just take out JK and kindergarten. We need to look at the whole funding program. Anyone who enrols in September and they all go down south, is it fair that they get funded for that? It is a bigger issue than just JK. Thank you, Mr. Chair.