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Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act

Government Bill

19th Assembly, 2nd Session

Introduced on March 9, 2023

Events

Timeline of key legislative events

  • First Reading
    Completed March 9, 2023 (Debate | Vote)
  • Second Reading
    Completed March 27, 2023 (Debate | Vote)
  • Third Reading
    Completed March 29, 2023 (Debate | Vote)
  • Commissioner's Assent
    Completed March 30, 2023 (Debate)
  • Status

    Bill Text



    Related Votes

    March 29, 2023 Passed Third Reading of Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, Carried
    March 27, 2023 Passed Second Reading of Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    March 27, 2023 Passed Second Reading of Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    March 9, 2023 Passed First Reading of Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act

    Discussion & Mentions

    Assent To Bills
    Assent To Bills

    March 30th, 2023

    Page 6114


    See context

    The Commissioner Of The Northwest Territories Margaret M. Thom

    Mahsi. Good afternoon Mr. Speaker, Premier Cochrane, Ministers, Members of the Legislative Assembly, staff and visitors in the public gallery.

    It is always a good feeling and honour to be here and see all of you. Thank you for your ongoing commitment and hard work on behalf of the people of the Northwest Territories. It is with great honour and respect that I acknowledge the territory of the Dene, Metis and Inuit of this great land. We are extremely grateful to live, work, celebrate, and be welcomed as visitors in your territory.

    After the long and cold winter, it is nearly time to say, Spring is in the air. So enjoy the well-deserved, much-needed Easter break to enjoy the beautiful spring weather, longer daylight hours, the single digit temperatures in some places, and the sunshine. This break will allow you to breathe in the good fresh air to ground you. I wish you all safe, enjoyable travels to your homes, your loved ones, your constituencies. Happy and Blessed Easter season with your loved ones.

    Now as Commissioner of the Northwest Territories, I am pleased to assent to the following bills:

    • Bill 56, An Act to Amend the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
    • Bill 57, Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 2022
    • Bill 60, An Act to Amend the Petroleum Products and Carbon Tax Act
    • Bill 61, An Act to Amend the Ombud Act
    • Bill 62, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, No. 2
    • Bill 63, An Act to Amend Official Languages Act
    • Bill 66, An Act to Amend the Property Assessment and Taxation Act
    • Bill 67, An Act to Amend the Fire Prevention Act
    • Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child Day Care Act
    • Bill 73, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, No. 4
    • Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act
    • Bill 86, Supplementary Appropriation Act (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, 2022-2023
    • Bill 87, Supplementary Appropriation Act (Operations Expenditures), No. 3, 2023- 2023
    • Bill 88, Supplementary Appropriation Act (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 2023-2024
    • Bill 89, Appropriation Act (Operations Expenditures), 2023-2024

    Mahsi cho. Thank you. Quyananni. Merci beaucoup. Koana.

    ---SHORT RECESS

    Recorded Vote
    Third Reading Of Bills

    March 29th, 2023

    Page 6054


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    All those opposed, please rise. All those abstaining, please rise.

    The results of the recorded vote: 17 in favour, zero opposed, zero abstentions. The motion is carried. Bill 76 has had third reading.

    ---Carried

    Third reading of bills. Minister responsible for Finance.

    Recorded Vote
    Third Reading Of Bills

    March 29th, 2023

    Page 6054


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    Clerk Of The House Mr. Glen Rutland

    The Member for Thebacha. The Member for Kam Lake. The Member for Nunakput. The Member for Yellowknife North. The Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. The Member for Monfwi. The Member for Great Slave. The Member for Nahendeh. The Member for Yellowknife South. The Member for Sahtu. The Member for Range Lake. The Member for Inuvik Boot Lake. The Member for Yellowknife Centre. The Member for Hay River North. The Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. The Member for Deh Cho. The Member for Hay River South.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, Carried
    Third Reading Of Bills

    March 29th, 2023

    Page 6054


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Question has been called. The Member has requested a recorded vote. All those in favour, please rise.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, Carried
    Third Reading Of Bills

    March 29th, 2023

    Page 6054


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    Some Hon. Members

    Question.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, Carried
    Third Reading Of Bills

    March 29th, 2023

    Page 6054


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Thebacha. The motion is in order. To the motion.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, Carried
    Third Reading Of Bills

    March 29th, 2023

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    Frieda Martselos

    Frieda Martselos Thebacha

    Mr. Speaker, I move, second by the honourable Member for Hay River North, that Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, be read for the third time. And, Mr. Speaker, I request a recorded vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Thebacha. The Member is seeking unanimous consent to waive Rule 8.2(7) and have Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act, referred directly to Committee of the Whole for consideration later today. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Member for Thebacha, it's referred to Committee of the Whole later today.

    ---Carried

    Second reading of bills. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters, Bill 23, 29, 60, 61, 63, 66, 67, 68, 73, and Bill 76, Committee Report 40-19(2), Committee Report 42-19(2), Committee Report 43-19(2), Committee Report 44-19(2), Committee Report 47-19(2), Minister's Statement 264-19(2), Tabled Document 681-19(2), Tabled Document 694-19(2), Tabled Document 813, 881, 882, and 883-19(2).

    By the authority given to me as Speaker under Rule 2.2(4), I hereby authorize the House to sit beyond the daily hours of adjournment to consider the business before the House, with Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes in the chair.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

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    Frieda Martselos

    Frieda Martselos Thebacha

    Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 8.2(7) and have Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act, referred directly to Committee of the Whole for consideration later today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Any abstentions? The motion is carried. Bill 76 has had second reading. Member for Thebacha.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    Some Hon. Members

    Question.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Thebacha. The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    Frieda Martselos

    Frieda Martselos Thebacha

    Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Hay River North, that Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act, be read for a second time.

    Mr. Speaker, Bill 76 amends the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act to

    • Establish a Commission within two years of the 2023 general election;
    • Expand the size of the Commission;
    • Broaden the eligibility to serve as chairperson of the Commission;
    • Add geographic and place names to the relevant considerations of the Commission; and,
    • Modernize language, including by using gender-neutral language.

    Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you. Colleagues, we'll take a short time out.

    ---SHORT RECESS

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 27th, 2023

    Page 5892


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    Frieda Martselos

    Frieda Martselos Thebacha

    Mr. Speaker, I move, second by the Member for Nahendeh, that Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Act, be read for the second time.

    Mr. Speaker, Bill 76 amends the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act to

    • Establish a Commission within two years of the 2023 general election;
    • Expand the size of the Commission;
    • Broaden the eligibility to serve as chairperson of the Commission;
    • Add geographic and place names to the relevant considerations of the Commission; and,
    • Modernize language, including by using gender-neutral language.

    Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

    Report Of Committee Of The Whole
    Report Of Committee Of The Whole

    March 9th, 2023

    Page 5849


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes. Do we have a seconder? Member for Yellowknife South. All those in favour? All those opposed? Any abstentions? The motion is carried.

    ---Carried

    Third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, orders of the day.

    Report Of Committee Of The Whole
    Report Of Committee Of The Whole

    March 9th, 2023

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    Lesa Semmler

    Lesa Semmler Inuvik Twin Lakes

    Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates, and I would like to report progress with one motion passed. And, Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the Committee of the Whole be concurred with.

    Report Of Committee Of The Whole
    Report Of Committee Of The Whole

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    May I please have the report of Committee of the Whole. Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes.

    Committee Motion 379-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Finance - Deferral of Department (Page 149), Carried
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    There's a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

    ---Carried

    I will now rise and report progress.

    ---SHORT RECESS

    Committee Motion 379-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Finance - Deferral of Department (Page 149), Carried
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Merci, Madam la Presidente. I move that the chair rise and report progress. Mahsi.

    Committee Motion 379-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Finance - Deferral of Department (Page 149), Carried
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Consideration of Department of Finance, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, operating expenditures, total department, is deferred.

    Thank you, Minister. Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us. Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses from the Chamber.

    Member for Frame Lake, what is the wish of committee?

    Committee Motion 379-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Finance - Deferral of Department (Page 149), Carried
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    Some Hon. Members

    Question.

    Committee Motion 379-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Finance - Deferral of Department (Page 149), Carried
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

    Page 5849


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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    The motion is in order. To the motion.

    Committee Motion 379-19(2): Tabled Document 813-19(2): 2023-2024 Main Estimates - Finance - Deferral of Department (Page 149), Carried
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Merci, Madam la Presidente. I move that this committee defer further consideration of the estimates for the Department of Finance at this point. Mahsi, Madam Chair.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    All right. Are there any further questions under the information items? Seeing none, thank you, Members, please return now to the departmental summary found on page 149. Revenue summary, information items on page 150. Are there any questions? No further questions, I will now call the department summary.

    Finance, operations expenditures, total department, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $337,534,000. Member for Frame Lake.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Seeing as the Minister left me, like, 15 seconds, I really do want to ask a question; however just -- I won't. That could be her reward. So thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Anything final, Member for Great Slave?

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. That -- I guess I set myself up for that one. Madam Chair, so, I mean, we have the liquor and cannabis commission, which is the entity responsible for actually doing the sales of the liquor and now cannabis. So the revolving fund really does fund those operations and as soon as they have an excess, they don't make a profit; that money goes back to the consolidated revenue of the Government of the Northwest Territories. But by keeping it separate, they do -- they can run their own operation, and -- yes, separate unto themselves which I would say is not necessarily an area that I'm keen to see myself have to get too involved into the actual buying and selling of the liquor. Thank you.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you. Then my question is why is it revolving fund to begin with? I really struggle sometimes with understanding the accounting mechanisms that have been set up, the third arm, health's -- you know, the third arm's length health authorities, the housing corp, or NWT Housing not being a department. Like, why did we decide to do it this way; what makes this worthwhile if we can't then control it? Thank you.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I've been asked a lot of questions lately about revolving funds, and I haven't received a lot of positive response to them from the department, from their experts, and there's a number of reasons for that. One of them is if you start to put money into the revolving fund, well for one, if it sits in a revolving fund, it doesn't actually get appropriated and approved in the House. So in terms of being able to maintain control over what the spending actually is by the government, the minute it goes off into a revolving fund it doesn't get approved here. And I would be, you know, remiss as the department -- Minister of Finance for the government to say we shouldn't be appropriating our money here at this Chamber in this process.

    Another challenge is that if you put the money in the revolving fund and it's a certain amount but it's not enough, again it's more difficult to necessarily draw from other sources as opposed to the consolidated revenue fund, which is the ultimate bank account of the Government of the Northwest Territories, which is where all the money comes from. So if there's a program or service that starts to be in greater need or become a greater priority as we have seen priorities evolve over the life of the Assembly, it's easy to adjust, again, in the course of where we spend and how we spend if it's part of that overall budgeting process.

    And the last comment on this, more specific to the question, Madam Chair, is the addictions side of this issue really is a health and social services area of expertise. The departments did work together because we had, of course, the Liquor Act work going on and the development of the alcohol and addictions strategy happening. So the two leads on that were meeting regularly and I understand were trying to make their work at least not be contradictory one to the other. Thank you.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yeah, I appreciate that's in the little bit that I've seen of that, again not the committee I see on. But I appreciate that is what is being considered. And, again, I think it shows the understanding of the department that it's not going to be a one answer or a one size fits all across the territory.

    And then I guess I'll just ask lastly, because I think that usually MLA Johnson asks and he's not going to today, is there a way -- or some others have asked, to actually funnel this money directly into our rehab addiction services, etcetera. And I'm pretty sure I already know what the answer's going to be, but I'll ask again. Thank you, Madam Chair.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So there is -- of course, there has been a review of the Liquor Act in the length of this Assembly, and I would say credit to the standing committee for encouraging that to move forward. There -- and that would be one of the items that can be considered through that process, and it's obviously then a process that includes public consultation. I think the Member sort of stated it much the way I've been receiving information, which is that there's -- what might be workable and appropriate for a large centre such as Yellowknife may not necessarily be reflective of what's wanted by a small community. And part of what would be nice to see in amended liquor legislation is actually to be able to empower individual communities to better reflect what they want without too many hoops, including the desires of the community in Yellowknife which may be different. So not to go too far on the what's coming or what may not be coming in the legislation -- in amended legislation, only to say that that is exactly the kind of balance that needs to be struck therein. Thank you.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, and I would definitely follow up with the Minister for a further conversation with her other hat on as well, with ITI.

    And, again, I really do want to be respectful of the conversation around liquor and the damage it has done in the Northwest Territories. However, in Yellowknife, and what I hear from some residents, is the frustration at the liquor store not being opened on Sundays. And it strikes me as quite odd in how we decide to treat cannabis versus liquor where cannabis can be sold on a Sunday and liquor cannot. And I know this is a very complex conversation in the territory but when I do look at Yellowknife, I don't see necessarily why we're not selling alcohol on Sundays. And so is that something that the government or the department is looking to perhaps change in the future, even if it is community-specific and community-driven, which ones do it. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, Madam Chair, I mean, that's -- I mean, my first reaction is that's interesting. And not to make it too simple of an answer but I don't have a good answer right now on the fly, and I think it actually is one that does deserve a bit more of an answer and one that might, you know -- just more of us going and looking back. I mean, there are certainly restrictions and rules around, you know, even sales of liquor as well as sales of cannabis. I'm certainly hearing, you know, different aspects of that issue in the Northwest Territories, whether or not to regulate a different type of venue. Again, bigger conversation. So if I might suggest, this may be one that if I can just have a bit of time with the department to see what barriers there are within the legislation or regulations, put that to the Member, and then obviously if Members want to push for changes then they would be then well placed to do that knowing exactly what it is that they would need to see changed to achieve the goals described. Thank you.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. And I guess I'm also sort of thinking -- trying to think a little bit more outside of the box of just the sale of cannabis itself. And the reason I bring this up is I have a constituent who is a cannabis influencer, and they are looking to see ways in which they could, potentially, you know, do growing workshops, things like that, and such as any other business in the Northwest Territories maybe be looking to have some startup cost funding, SEED funding, things like that. And I know that's not this hat today that you're wearing -- or the Minister's wearing. But, you know, I'm curious to know if there's any sort of innovative conversation around this type of business. It is a huge market. There is a lot there. There's tourism things with it. So I guess I'm just curious to hear the Minister speak a bit about that. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so the process right now is a proponent would have to be designated as a vendor. There are currently three private stores which certainly has, as I think the Member's pointed out, gone up and that it may be one of the explanations simply by fact of having more access that there are now more licensed and legal sales. So there are ongoing processes I understand, and that's some of the other -- and sorry, just to also the privately-run store that is existing as well, which took that off the hands of the government to run. There are RFPs out typically that would go out to see if somebody wants to run a cannabis store in a community, and someone can bid on it. There's been at times difficultly getting people to bid on those RFPs, certainly at least outside of Yellowknife. Yes, and certainly there's -- you know, to the extent that there's interest in that, I -- you know, if we hear there's interest in that then that can drive whether or not more RFPs may want to issue or not. Thank you, Madam Chair.

    Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to ask some questions around the liquor and cannabis revolving fund. And I note that NWTers are increasingly spending more money on cannabis, according to our main estimates here. Seeing an over $1 million rise from last year. So my question is -- and I'm going to caveat this with that I grew up in British Columbia. So the cannabis culture has been around for a very long time in that province. And through that, there's a lot of, you know, opportunities for things such as cafes and other cannabis-related businesses that are currently at the moment not allowed in the Northwest Territories. And I guess my question is there a plan at any point to look at this -- to this sort of operating model of just the government selling and such and maybe really look at cannabis as a bit of our economic diversity type portfolio and see if there's a place there for a bit of a cannabis retail or sector? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    I think it's too late in the day for me to try to quibble about whether we're going to use actuals when we actually know the amount versus budgeted amounts that are not reflective of reality. So I think I'll just stop there. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Courtoreille

    Thanks, Madam Chair. So just to clarify, the amounts on Roman numeral page 14 for the year 2022-2023, those are still budgeted numbers; they're not actual numbers. And for the revised main estimates, we're forecasting that number to be $3.8 million. But it will likely be a different number once the actuals come in. We don't know what the exact number will be. Eventually, once those actuals are sorted out, you'll see that actual contribution to the heritage fund reflected on the heritage fund schedule under the Department of Finance. The 7.6 number is the appropriated number that the department has in its budget, and it seems reasonable to put that for those budget years going forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So, again, it's -- yes, I mean, I'm not sure if we're going to get past this, Madam Chair. So 7.6 is just -- it's a budget estimate and in 14, it is where we are at in terms of the revenue forecast. I suggest let me try one more time if I can get Mr. Courtoreille to just walk through the math, both of the 7.6 of how we calculate it, and then compared to the math on how we calculate at page 14, please.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay. No, I'm sorry. Okay, look, I get that 2023-2024 is a guesstimate. We're budgeting ahead there. But for 2022-2023, the one on Roman numeral 14 seems to show actuals unless I'm totally out to lunch. So I can see where the -- you know, for 2021-2022, the $5,656,000 lines up with other income for 2021-2022 on page 172. But why is there just like this $7.6 million then for 2022-2023 in the main estimates when, you know, on page 14 it shows $2.026 million there's a contribution to the heritage fund.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So, again, 172 is just the budgeted -- and I shouldn't say "just." It is a budgeted amount. There are other numbers within the budget that are based on a projection, then there are standard bases by which they come up with the projections, while meanwhile over on the -- yeah, we don't put actuals into the budget, you just put budgeted or projected amounts. That's where you will see the way the department's budgets get built up, of having the actuals. Main estimates is the budget, then the revised is things that have changed over time, and then finally ending again with new main estimates.

    But I can go back one more time and perhaps to -- yes, the only number that you're going to see common is the 2021-2022 contribution because at this point we know what that actual number was. The actuals for what the actual revenue was and then the grants to start to derive what the revenue is and what the contribution amounts will be that starts to feed into future years. But the 7.6 is still a historical, just average, not based on what an actual presented number would be. I'll stop there and see if that's got me any further, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Thanks for that. So then if there's actuals shown on Roman numeral 14, I can see how it lines up with 2021-2022 back on page 172. But 2022-2023, there's just this placeholder amount of $7.6 million on page 172 whereas on Roman numeral 14 it actually shows, you know, $2.026 million, which is significantly less than 7.6. So which figure is right, and why wouldn't we be using the actuals that are shown on 14 put them into 172? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Courtoreille

    Thanks, Madam Chair. The schedule on page Roman numeral 14 is the summary of the resource revenue sharing. And that's a schedule that shows the breakdown of how resource revenues would be shared between Indigenous governments and ultimately with the heritage fund. It's really a different schedule than what is presented over in the finance section under the information item for the heritage fund. You can track the actual contribution to the heritage fund for the actual year. So for 2021-2022, it was $5.6 million. And Members will see that over in the corresponding schedule for the heritage fund. But for those future years, the heritage fund schedule just shows the amount of the budget that the Department of Finance has appropriated for. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Madam Chair, let's hand this to Mr. Courtoreille, please.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Thanks, Madam Chair. I started to ask some questions about the heritage fund before and then it twigged me to some -- I think I got an explanation for this but I'm still not quite sure about this.

    So there's figures shown on the heritage fund, on page 172, then in the -- there's a Roman numeral 14, there's a summary of resource revenue sharing, and the contributions to the heritage fund shown on that page are not the same as what I seem to see on page 172. And they're out by, you know, literally millions of dollars. So what are these two line items actually showing and why are they different? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    There are additional information items on page 172 to 175. Are there any questions? Member for Frame Lake.

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you, committee. We will now to the Office of the Comptroller General, beginning on page 169 with information items on page 170 and 171. Are there any questions?

    Seeing no questions, please turn to page 169.

    Finance, Office of the Comptroller General, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $93,016,000. Does committee agree?

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Are there any further comments under the Office of the Chief Information Officer? Seeing none, please turn to page 166.

    Finance, Office of the Chief Information Officer, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $21,834,000. Does committee agree?

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    Caitlin Cleveland

    Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

    Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. And I'm good with that. And I think too what would kind of be helpful is to kind of -- is to better understand what the steps are in getting there and more from a high level. Like, I'm not asking to create a framework before you create a framework. But understanding, you know, are we -- is this, you know, a three, four, five, ten-year transition for the GNWT? Because my concern is from kind of the human side of it where, you know, how do we track and use and analyze data to be more strategic in our decision-making if all the systems that we need to be able to talk one another aren't able to do that. And so I look forward to continuing this conversation with the Minister. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm conscious of time so, look, I can say there is again -- yet, again, there's another framework being developed, Madam Chair. But, again, you need a framework to know within what -- how to -- what the parameters are of what you're trying to achieve. Interoperability, again I completely share this as being a priority. I have drank this Kool-Aid. We can't -- the systems around going to work together if they're not designed to work together and you can't train people to have them working within the same systems if they don't know what they're working within, so it does take a framework to achieve those things. It's -- enterprise architecture is probably is another one I'm going to introduce you to as being the thing that is used to actually create that interoperability. So it's being worked on, and I'd be happy to perhaps provide a bit of a written update to Members rather than trying to do it in limited space of time here. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Caitlin Cleveland

    Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

    Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you know, something like interoperability framework is not likely something that we're going to see show up in the priorities of the 20th Assembly as a line item so to say, and so I'm wondering what suggestions the Department of Finance would have to the next Assembly coming in to be able to push this item to be able to actually deliver results across the government? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. There's not necessarily a line item that associates to interoperability but, Madam Chair, as the Member knows that's one of my new favourite words. It certainly is, I think, the goal in speaking -- in speaking with our new chief information officer, to get to a place of having more interconnectedness. There are, for example, SAM and DIIMS and programs such as that, that are now being rolled out across the whole of government which will hopefully support but also simply making it more of a priority in general because it takes people, and it does take resources to pay for these rather complex and expensive systems. So, again, not a line item per se but really is -- you know, doesn't need to be because it's a big focus of what the chief information officer is expected to deliver. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Caitlin Cleveland

    Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple of questions and, I mean, the Minister and I have had conversations about this before. One of the things that I am finding increasingly frustrating lately is when I go and talk to another Minister about integrated service delivery and the barriers to being able to provide integrated service delivery to Northerners because of our systems that we use within the government. And so I'm wondering if -- you know, we've got $21.8 million here in expenditures for this office, and I know that they do far more than just purchase software or, rather, manage the purchase of software. And so is there funding within here to work on an interoperability framework? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. We will now turn to page 166, Office of the Chief Information Officer, with information items on page 167. Are there any questions? Member for Kam Lake.

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Are there any further questions to the management board secretariat from Members? Seeing none, please turn to page 161.

    Finance, management board secretariat, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $110,692,000. Does committee agree?

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there are costs associated with having the Canada Revenue Agency administering our tax collection in general. So I don't know that this is necessarily unique or distinct. The reality is it would cost a significant amount of money for the GNWT to do that and human resources capacity. And if they didn't do it, we'd have to do it. So it's sort of a one way or the other. It might actually be more expensive for us to have to start up our own entire tax collection and administration system. CRA is actually a fairly large -- I think surprisingly large part of the federal government that might just sort of swing under the radar. But I don't have their budgets in front of me nor do I intend to defend them, but just to say that that part of ours is -- yes, it's something that has to happen one way or the other. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I do appreciate that the Minister's a bit verbose but I did understand from the first sentence what the answer to my question was, so. I just want to -- one thing there that twigged me in that comment was the $700,000 to administer the program. So I have to say that feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth from the federal government. Not only are we imposing this all on you, we're now going to charge you another $700,000 to administer it for you. So is there any opportunity perhaps for us to go back to the feds and just say, please, at the very least remove the $700,000 admin fee and give that back to us? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So, again, it's federal government rules that we're working within and, you know, I'd like to suggest it's -- we're basically putting up a shield to try to ensure that the full force of what the federal government is doing doesn't impact residents and businesses in the Northwest Territories. The total grants and rebates that are proposed here are $47.18 million. There's also almost $700,000 that is required to administer the program largely through the Canada Revenue Agency. We don't have necessarily the manpower to do it but it does still come with a cost. And then the breakdown is we cannot rebate heating fuel anymore. So that's certainly a big one that we and other jurisdictions have been very vocal about but to no avail. And, yes, you cannot -- right now, people when they pay, when they're getting their heating fuel or whatever other sorts of fuel, it's right at the point of purchase. So at the pump so to speak. That is also not allowed anymore. You cannot negate the carbon signal meaning you can't make it seem to someone that they're not paying it when they're paying it. It is now needs to be apparent to a person that they're paying the tax even if we, as the GNWT, are going to try and step in and actually completely mitigate that tax later through the payment. At the front end, the federal government is saying they want people to know what they're paying. At the back end, we're saying we're going to prevent them from actually being impacted by it financially.

    Now, look, one of the benefits of that is that it hopefully will motivate people to, in fact, take steps, whether it's through Arctic Energy Alliance or otherwise, to reduce GHG emissions. Then they get more money in their pocket when they get their cost of living offset. But it just means that you can't upfront know what -- you have to upfront know what you're paying. There, thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you. If I can come up with one that makes sense. I guess -- yeah, so my understanding is that we can't give back then the direct money to people at the -- or going forward, based on what the government is changing, but we can still give rebates and things under other programs; is that what the Minister's saying? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So the increase on expenditures here is the increase to the grants that are for various rebates benefits associated with offsetting. So there is the grant -- I mean, and this is, of course, all projected and premised on the notion that the -- what we anticipated in Bill 60 would pass which, you know, obviously is not -- is not guaranteed by any stretch. The largest amount would be for the large emitter program that we have, which is not a complete or a total remission of taxes paid by large emitters but only the amount that is planned for under the 72 percent. They right now pay roughly 50 percent of the tax as compared to other residents or businesses that are paying carbon taxes. There's also the rebate for the generation of electricity. There's the rebate for cost of living to individual residents. And so that -- yes, so that's the different pieces here. And, I mean, maybe I'll leave it to see what the next question might be, Madam Chair. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I am now thinking that would be more in the capital area, so I do appreciate the Minister answering my question regardless.

    So I guess I -- I'm going to touch the really big elephant in the room is the carbon tax offset. Again, I still -- I'm not on the committee. I do struggle at times to understand everything that is going on around the carbon tax. And given that there is $47.8 million here, and yet it's my understanding that we can't use these for rebates, where does this money end up going given the changes come April 1st? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry, Madam Chair, I was looking for something different there. Because this -- so the money that's showing up here in -- under the management board secretariat is the -- is related to the service payments that we have to maintain the line or -- for over the cost of having built the line but not necessarily connected to what is happening in terms of connecting communities.

    So the Mackenzie Valley Fibre Line does create the point of presence of the fibre in the communities and we do pay for that and receive revenues for its use. But there is, meanwhile, work happening, led by Northwestel, with respect to delivering on a 50/10 level of service to every community in the Northwest Territories. I had the opportunity to speak with representatives from Northwestel within the last month or two. I gather there's been some delays as a result of the Anik F2 failure, but they are still expecting to be on track for a 2026 delivery date and are being monitored by CRTC in that regard. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. And I mean, yeah, I take that as a good sign too of an expansion but then we all know in the past too, sometimes if someone expands too much too quickly, they can't financially keep up with that. So I'm a little concerned we're in a little bit of a teetery position here when it comes to our airlines. And I guess it's worth noting as well that, you know, the issues that Canadian North faces, or Air Canada for that matter, are obviously a lot different than what our small regional carriers face and such and I know that's a bigger conversation. So I will leave that one there.

    My next question is around the Mackenzie Valley Fibre Link. I guess I'm not super up to date on where things are at currently with that and the redundancy and tieing all of the -- some of these communities onto the fibre optic loop. So can the Minister speak a little bit about what the plans are next for the $12.25 million that's slated here? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope not. And, you know, Madam Chair, I do have the opportunity to meet, and have been taking the opportunity myself and Minister Archie to meet with all the major airlines that are servicing the Northwest Territories, arising actually more from the lack of access to routing as oppose to worrying about their finances. And in doing so, it gives us an opportunity to have a better handle on what is happening in that industry. We've certainly not had any asks; I can say that. And if anything, Minister Archie and I are more concerned with seeing what they can do to expand services in the North. So there are routes being added and I'll take that as a good sign for now. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So then I'm just guessing it wasn't in our predicted mains because we didn't know we were getting it, and I see the Minister nodding yes so thank you for that.

    Given that there was a recent article about Canadian North and issues perhaps around financing, without getting too much into their financial details, does the Minister anticipate there's going to be another need for any aviation sector supports coming? Like, I recognize that the pandemic has played its course as far as being like an emergency, but, you know, our travel industry, our airlines are still quite fragile, and I'm just wondering, you know, given supply chain issues and all of that, cost of fuel, are we going to be bailing out our airlines again coming up? Thanks.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. That was the last round of funding received from the federal government under this initiative. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about the aviation sector support. I do know obviously that was the money that was put in during COVID to help keep our airplanes afloat, for lack of a better word. And so I note that there was an additional amount of $2 million put in in the revised estimates that we hadn't planned on. Can the Minister speak to -- I probably should know what that is, but if she could explain why we ended up putting in another $2 million last year that we didn't plan? And then I guess I'll ask my other question after. Thanks.

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    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    All right, thank you. Member for Great Slave.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Yeah, okay, thanks. I don't think I have anything else. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that's correct. Approximately -- so, again, sometime in and around by August and let's say early fall at the outset. Thank you.

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    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. And is that when the funds go out to Indigenous governments under the net fiscal benefit arrangement? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. The contributions or payments are made over the summer months, so either between July to before the end of August.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. So yearend, March 31st, when do we actually have some sense of what is going to go in for the previous year? Is it like June, July, September, December, when do we kind of know how much is going to go in there? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So when royalty payments come in, you know, end of the fiscal year and are reported upon and, again, keeping in mind the fiscal year for the mines themselves, then that is when the total contribution is known. So you would see it -- you know, probably this is an occasion where looking at the actuals and not just the budget is the way to go to understand what is actually in there. This is just the budgeted amount, again based on an average. It's not obviously what actually comes in. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. So when do we actually know how much is in the heritage fund? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that is -- it's -- the number that's put in here is based on historical averages and so that's why you see $7.6 million there, and it does obviously vary year by year. But based on historical averages, that's the number that is used. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. I know I keep asking this question, and it probably is kind of annoying - as I can be. The Northwest Territories Heritage Fund, why is there just this placeholder figure of $7,600,000 for, it looks like, you know, last year the revised estimates. Surely to goodness we must know what that figure is by now? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    That's correct, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. And then we don't have any residual obligations for O and M or -- and so on, is that correct? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand it is the Tlicho government that would ultimately own that. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. Who actually owns the infrastructure then at the end of the day? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. That project is led by the Tlicho government. So the funding that you see there back in 2021-2022 was to help them in terms of supporting their design and planning services. But then beyond that, it is a project led by the Tlicho government. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Thanks, Madam Chair. So on page 161, the Whati Fibre Project is listed. Can someone explain to me was that just, like, put out to tender, or how was that project undertaken? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Please turn to management board secretariat beginning on page 161, with information items on 162 to 164. Are there any questions or comments under this section? Member for Frame Lake.

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you for your comments. Are there any further questions, comments under human resources? Seeing none, Members, please turn to page 158.

    Finance, human resources, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $22,689,000. Does committee agree?

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure nobody likes tokenism but maybe lip service is another phrase that we can throw out when it comes to this conversation. I mean, I get that there appears to be an intent and a want and -- to hire and increase representation, but I just don't see it translating to people on the ground. And I recognize that there has been some key hires in senior management even that I think are really good and are, you know, leading the way and a good example. But when you look at just, you know, movement within departments, I can think of within the housing department, a long-term Indigenous employee that was, you know, recently passed over for a settler, for lack of a better word; somebody who had moved up from the south. I hear this constantly. We all -- I think everybody on this side probably knows at least one or two people that we could think of right off the top that, you know, should have been advancing within their departments and they're not. So I guess just more of a comment.

    I recognize it's a very difficult thing, especially right now where we are wanting to -- we're so desperate for employees in general that, you know, we can't always be looking at imposing all of these sets of criteria however it does need to be addressed. And I guess obviously through training and ensuring we have a good supply. I'll just leave it at that. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Department of Finance doesn't believe in tokenism. There is, of course, a number of efforts, as I know the House is familiar with respect to Indigenous recruitment and retention generally. So, again, Indigenous Recruitment and Retention Framework, which was introduced now a couple of years ago but which is starting to roll out and I believe will be bearing fruit. So one of the things is that individual departments now have specific targets. I think that's a big deal, and it's worth focusing on a little because if you don't even have a target you could just say you're working on something without actually having something to work towards or to be measured against. So with those targets now in place -- and they're individualized because different departments have different types of work available to them and therefore can focus on different types of recruitment strategies or different kind of training to ensure that people are moving up through the ranks depending upon the nature of the jobs.

    Now, so that should apply regardless of someone's gender. I would agree that we do right now in some -- in some positions it's actually men who need to be supported perhaps more to achieve parity than women. Madam Chair, I'm going to give a bit of a plug to the review we're doing right now, the affirmative action policy, which really doesn't have necessarily that kind of look at what's happening in the labour market. It is simply a policy that applies based on one's identity feature rather than an equity policy that looks at the gap between what's happening in the labour market and who we actually have working for us. So that's just one more reason that we're looking to look at how we're actually hiring and who we're promoting. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Katrina Nokleby

    Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to echo a little bit of the concerns from my colleagues around the decentralization of the human resources function.

    As I've moved through some of my own health stuff at the hospital and talking with technicians and things there, there is a perceived notion, and I don't know how accurate it is, that the holdup on some of the recruitment is the department of HR and not the department of health and that, you know, as it was put to me, the job description, etcetera, had already been put in long ago to the Department of Finance, and nothing had moved. And so I just wanted to echo that that is a concern that I hear. I do recognize that, you know, everybody is struggling for employees at this time, but it sounds like we are a bit bogged down at times in our process. So I don't know that I really have a question in that but just more that, I do hear the same things as my colleagues, and particularly in the more specialized hiring areas, that perhaps some of that control needs to go back to the departments.

    But my question is a bit around Indigenous representation, particularly Indigenous men. I think it's still stagnant at the 8 percent representation. And as a government we do very well with hiring of women, generally. So I think that there is a real lack here, or something is obviously very flawed if Indigenous men are only 8 percent. So I also hear stories of tokenism and such, or where people are hired but only then to be sort of that face but not really advancing or having the opportunities for training. So I guess I just want to hear the Minister speak a little bit more about how things are changing to increase the representation of Indigenous people within the GNWT and particularly Indigenous men? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Are there any further questions under human resources? Member for Great Slave.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    No, okay, that's -- I just wanted to raise that and it sound like there's a collaborative thing going so that's all good by me. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there is a health working group jointly populated by the UNW and human resources, or Department of Finance. And there are regular meetings -- a variety of regular meetings between the Department of Finance and UNW and I am told that it's at an officials' level but that that is a standing item specific to the idea of recruitment services, health recruitment. It's a standing item at those meetings. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Yeah, okay, well I tried. So I'm just wondering whether the folks on the HR side ever talk to UNW, not about wages, anything like that, but about recruitment and retention. What work, if any, could be done or should be done with UNW to try to make sure that we can keep those positions staffed? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the Yellowknife-based staff, I understand, are based in Yellowknife -- or in the YK Centre. Madam Chair, it's part of recruitment services. So, I mean, they can be embedded with other professionals who do recruitment as a day to day, or, I mean, embedded with health care professionals. To be honest, Madam Chair, I would expect that professionals in this sphere, and given the nature of their work, are expected to engage directly and regularly with their counterparts, whether it's the professionals on the recruitment side or whether it's those who are within health and social services, so yes. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. Well, let's just focus then on the positions in Yellowknife. And, you know, I presume that there's not warm bodies there right now but where are they actually going to be located? I guess where I'm going with this is it might be better if they're actually located closer to the health and social services staff and the workers there as opposed to just being kind of lumped in with all of the rest of the HR people. And, look, I don't even know where they are in Yellowknife, what building they're in. But I guess if I could get some clarification from the Minister. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So it is an initiative that comes out from the department of human resources, so Finance, and obviously is a headquarters functions but then beyond that, this is, again, the eight positions that we were just describing here in the main estimates have locations beyond Yellowknife. There's human resource officer positions now being added to -- well, I'm going to get it wrong now. To Inuvik and Smith, with a view to being much more closely to where those positions would be required. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Thanks, Madam Chair. The health care recruitment team, I'm just wondering where are they actually physically located? Are they in with everybody else from HR or do they actually -- are they over with health and social services staff; how does that work? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Well, Madam Chair, perhaps more broadly then, I'll take a look at the regular reports that I do receive from the health recruitment unit and see if we can provide that so that Members have a better sense of what the work is that they are accomplishing.

    I would say, Madam Chair, that they actually have seen some successes in terms of their hiring and some reduction in overall vacancies. However, of course, the market remains challenging so that's not to say that the situation is solved but it would be worth an update from them, and we'll provide that. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Jane Weyallon Armstrong

    Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

    Well, this is just in general too as well. You know, like, so I just wanted to know how GNWT is working with agency and other GNWT departments and Indigenous governments to support recruitment efforts of health care professionals in many of the small communities? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So the health recruitment unit does work both with -- or in three parts. There's health and social services, NTHSSA, as well as the Tlicho services -- or social -- TCSA, Madam Chair, to form working groups that are meant to have the human resources expertise on the one side but also then the TCSA expertise on the other side so that they can then develop together and identify together what the gaps are and how to respond to them. So I would certainly commit, Madam Chair, to perhaps getting some notes or some background as to where that working group is at from the -- with the TCSA. I do get regular reports in a general sense as to what's coming back from HRU. But I -- and I would certainly suggest that some specifics from the working group might be the best answer and more helpful. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Jane Weyallon Armstrong

    Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

    Yes, thank you. Okay, I know that work is being done to support the recruitment. But I need to know how or if our community -- how our community are being thought of in this whole process. Can the Minister explain how the headquarters empowers our region to attract and retain health care professionals?

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that's a large and complex answer. I'll try to be brief. I'm mindful of the ten-minute time, but I'm happy to take more questions either in the House or in writing.

    There's two parts to it. And firstly there is -- the work that's happening under the health recruitment unit, and in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Services, to really look at everything from the labour market supplement, for example, to other initiatives that were announced earlier last year, you know, such as travel with -- with travel incentives to bring family up. But on the other side of it, Madam Chair, I'm live to the fact that the population demographic outside of Yellowknife and outside regional centres tends to be a very dominant Indigenous population, and there are a number of recruitment efforts in that space to try to support a more representative public service. Everything from the Indigenous -- the Indigenous Recruitment and Retention Framework speaks to them. And, again, mindful of time, I don't list them. But I would say that that is probably somewhere to start looking as well in terms of recruiting specifically from within communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Jane Weyallon Armstrong

    Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

    Well, that is a disadvantage for us because our vacancy rate is growing in small communities, and we are at risk of losing staff, particularly in the health care field. So I just wanted to ask the Minister can the Minister tell the House how the health care recruitment plan will support our small communities in attracting and retaining health care professionals?

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Monfwi.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, certainly I would note for -- at this moment, there is a junior officer, I think a human resources officer and an assistant in the Tlicho -- based in the Tlicho region. I certainly can appreciate, you know, feedback from the Member. It is difficult to necessarily draw a conclusion about the state of hiring or vacancy rates in a context right now given the labour market shortages across sectors and across Canada and whether or not that is related to a shift in how human resources was structured many years ago as compared to the circumstances we're facing today. There is no immediate plan to reorganize fundamentally how human resources is operating. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Jane Weyallon Armstrong

    Jane Weyallon Armstrong Monfwi

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I know, this is further to what my colleague just said. In the past, in our region, TCSA and other GNWT departments, had power to work through human resources process to support our residents in the communities and now these functions have been centralized to Yellowknife office and our region do not have the flexibility to recruit and attract, you know, outside -- especially with the health department, to recruit more health nurses, you know. We have a lot of vacancy just like Minister Green said, that there's 40 percent vacancy. We have problems recruiting nurses, speech pathologists, CYCC and all that. But in the past when the department were doing it, the agency and other GNWT were -- when they had their own human resources office, I don't think there was as much problems or there was any -- a huge vacancy rate at that time. So I'm just wondering, will the Minister decentralize some of the human -- or the human resources power back to the regions to small communities to do their own hiring as we have done in the past?

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Are there any further questions under the Finance human resources? Member for Monfwi.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. We certainly do track the timeliness of hiring processes across departments. I don't have that data in front of me, and it hasn't appeared in my eyes as I'm sitting here. So I will commit to get back to the Member with that.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Rylund Johnson

    Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

    Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I guess I don't fully quite understand it. One of the complaints I know we have heard is that a manager over at the health authority will identify a candidate and want to hire them and then they have to quick it over to, I assume someone in HR -- I don't know if it's actually specifically the recruitment unit -- and then there's this turnaround time. And I believe, you know, we've actually been improving it so perhaps that is the question. Can someone just tell me how quickly HR is now processing, especially for health -- and I know there's multiple different timelines, you know, from advertising to -- maybe even to actual contract. But whatever data we have available of us, has this been sped up and we're making some progress on this area? I think it's usually post-interview to contracting and -- thank you, Madam Chair

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so there is a joint initiative between the Department of Health and Social Services and the Department of Finance. And I will speak specifically to the health area though, really, Madam Chair, at this point the department of health mirrors more closely what happens in other departments in that there are still management roles for the department's staff that then work with a human resources officer or client services officer who can support the work that goes on to hire someone into an individual department or division.

    The health recruitment unit, though, is a little bit different. So understanding that this may be the focus here, this is really meant to address, firstly, the mandate item that we have to increase specifically health professionals in the Northwest Territories but also arising and focusing on the challenges of recruitment of health professionals right now specifically given labour market shortages across Canada. So this began under -- again under the mandate item and has really been refocused and given even more attention in light of what's going on.

    So there are some -- with the specialized efforts to support the Department of Health and Social Services, the health recruitment unit can undertake extra and added work to focus on what's going on in the health services labour market to initialize specific campaign drives to try to recruit nurses to spend extra efforts to, you know -- for instance, attending focused conferences. And perhaps I'll stop there, Madam Chair, and make sure I've answered the question adequately. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Rylund Johnson

    Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Can someone just try to explain to me whether there -- how this unit has changed over time with health hiring? My understanding is prior to the amalgamation, the health authorities were doing all of their hiring themselves and they had their own HR officers. That's no longer the case. And I think now we have -- we still have a bit of a hybrid model where there are some hiring being done in health with the assistance of this unit? Can someone just try to explain it to me. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

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    Mackay

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So the -- that's a new initiative funding to provide to the management recruitment services for the establishment of a health recruitment unit. So the function of the establishment is to -- the unit already exists. It was to enhance that unit. So there's eight positions that are being added to that:

    • One manager based in Yellowknife;
    • Two human resource officers in Yellowknife;
    • One HRO in Inuvik;
    • One HRO in Fort Smith;
    • And then two junior HROs in Yellowknife; and,
    • One human resource assistant in Yellowknife.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Deputy minister

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, these positions are for the human resources health recruitment unit. There are -- really is a -- I can certainly actually provide the detail breakdown of where they are but let me just -- mine -- I'll turn it to the deputy minister, please.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Rylund Johnson

    Rylund Johnson Yellowknife North

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm looking at page 159, and I see that human resources unit within Finance is adding eight new positions. Can someone just tell me what those positions are? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. We will now turn to page 158. Human resource with information items on page 159. Questions. Member for Yellowknife North.

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. All right. Are there any further questions from Members under the directorate? Seeing none, please turn to page 336 -- or sorry, wrong. To 154.

    Finance and directorate, operations expenditure summary, 2023-2024 Main Estimates, $89,303,000. Does committee agree?

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks. I don't think I have any other questions. I'm just...

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I certainly can -- sorry, yes, so that's -- the difference there. That, Madam Chair, was positionally -- well, a couple of things, Madam Chair. There were some changes in terms of compensation and benefits back at the time. There was unfunded positions and underfunded positions that have been -- that have adjusted over time. And then also, Madam Chair, there was an unfunded donation -- this is where there's a donation that was made, $150,000 to United Way, to deal -- or to support flood relief came out of there as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay, thanks, Madam Chair. Just over on the previous page 154, there was a rather large, back in 2021-2022, line item for financial management board and then it came down pretty dramatically. So could I get an explanation as to what that spike is all about? Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. So it goes through the same process as every other department would in terms of going to FMB and being analyzed by management board secretariat. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Okay. So I'm just trying to understand, does the housing corp just say this is our budget, or is there any review of that by FMB and/or Department of Finance? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, essentially the main estimates that would have been seen by the House earlier in the Committee of the Whole process is what comes through financial management board and gets approval. So it's a similar process, although because the corporation not housing another department, that's why it -- the money shows up here going through the Department of Finance. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    No, thanks. Okay, that's good. The housing corporation line just above that, I probably asked this before but how is that kind of actually calculated? Does the housing corporation present a budget to the Department of Finance or FMB, then it's approved or reviewed somehow? Yeah, let's start with that. Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Mackay

    Thank you, Madam Chair. So as the Minister said, there's matching contributions made by the Government of the Northwest Territories to the social justice fund with 50 percent of the contributions allocated to the United Way Northwest Territories and 50 percent are allocated to different causes that the union chooses but I don't have those exact areas that they go in at hand. Thank you.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Deputy minister.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Madam Chair, I'm going to have the deputy minister describe the fund, please.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Thanks, Madam Chair. So the remaining 50 percent stays with the PSAC social justice fund, and they disburse that; is that correct? Thank you, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. This was negotiated as part of the collective agreement some years ago, and it goes to the Public Service Alliance's of Canada social justice fund, and 50 percent of that goes to United Way Northwest Territories.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Minister.

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Thanks, Madam Chair. On page 155, there's a line item that says social justice fund. That sounds pretty cool. Can the Minister tell us what that money's used for? Thanks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Committee, we will defer departmental summary and review the estimates by activity summary beginning with directorate, starting on page 154 with information items on page 155 and 156. Are there any questions under the directorate? Member for Frame Lake.

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Welcome. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, on my left is deputy minister Bill MacKay. And on my right is deputy secretary to the financial management board Terence Courtoreille.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses in.

    Minister, please introduce your witnesses.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Yes, please.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the House?

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Thank you, Madam Chair. I am pleased to present the 2023-2024 Main Estimates for the Department of Finance. These estimates support the mandate objectives for the Department of Finance, while continuing to meet the Government of the Northwest Territories' fiscal objectives to prioritize responsible and strategic spending.

    Overall, the department's main estimates propose an increase of $16.29 million, which is 5.1 percent over the 2022-2023 Main Estimates.

    Highlights of the proposed main estimates include:

    • A $927,000 reduction to contract budgets in order to better align funding with actual expenditure levels the department has experienced in prior years;
    • $4.42 million in forced growth, mainly driven by a $2 million increase to interest expenses to accommodate the yearly interest on the long-term bond issued by the GNWT. This is in addition to a $2.3 million increase to medical travel funding associated with an increase in public service as well as growing travel costs;
    • $1.104 million to fund a health recruitment unit initiative as the GNWT works to alleviate staffing pressures in the health care system through increased focus on health professional recruitment and retention; and
    • $10.27 million in other adjustments, which include an $8.28 million increase to the carbon tax offsets provided by the government, coinciding with the increase in the carbon tax rate along with the new proposed methodology under which rebates will apply.
    • Additionally, there will be a $3.99 million increase to the contribution amounts provided to Housing NWT to support their efforts in addressing housing needs across the territory.

    These estimates continue to support the priorities of the 19th Legislative Assembly and vision of Budget 2023, by:

    • Supporting strategic investments to expand the economy and reduce the cost of living in communities across the Northwest Territories through the development and improvement of reliable broadband services;
    • Continuing to deliver and improve procurement services and contracting opportunities; and,
    • Ensuring that GNWT departments have the support they require to manage both human and financial resources appropriately.

    That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    I now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 813-19(2), Main Estimates 2023-2024. We will now consider the Department of Finance. Does the Minister of Finance have any opening remarks?

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you, committee. We'll take a five-minute break and get started with Finance. Five minutes.

    ---SHORT RECESS

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    Some Hon. Members

    Agreed.

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    Thank you. Does committee agree?

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Merci, Madam la Presidente. Committee wishes to deal with Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates, with Department of Finance. Mahsi, Madam Chair

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    The Chair

    The Chair Lesa Semmler

    I now call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Member for Frame Lake.

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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Any abstentions? The motion is carried. Bill 75 has had second reading.

    ---Carried

    Second reading of bills. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters, Bill 23, 29, 60, 61, 63, 66, 67, 68, and 73, Committee Report 40, 43, 44, 47-19(2), Minister's Statement 264-19(2), Tabled Documents 681-19(2), Tabled Document 694-19(2), Tabled Document 813-19(2), Tabled Document 881, 882, and 883-19(2).

    By the authority given to me as Speaker under Rule 2.2(4), I hereby authorize the House to sit beyond the daily hours of adjournment to consider the business before the House, with Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes in the chair.

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    Some Hon. Members

    Question.

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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Minister. The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

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    Caroline Wawzonek

    Caroline Wawzonek Yellowknife South

    Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that Bill 75, Council of Women and Gender Diversity Act, be read for the second time.

    This Bill repeals the Status of Women Council Act and establishes the Council for Women and Gender Diversity. The bill also clarifies roles and responsibilities under the Act, clarifies the composition of the council, and redefines its objects and powers. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Nunakput. The Member for Nunakput is seeking unanimous consent to waive Rule 8.3(1) and increase the standing committee's review period from 120 to 180 days. Are there any nays? Hearing none, the time for the committee's review of Bill 74 has been increased from 120 to 180 days.

    Second reading of bills. Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

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    Jackie Jacobson

    Jackie Jacobson Nunakput

    Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As set out in Tabled Document 885-19(2), the process convention on the introduction, consideration, and enactment of bills drafted pursuant to the Intergovernmental Council Legislative Development Protocol, I seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 8.3(1) to increase the standing committee's review period from 120 to 180 days with the intention that the committee will report back Bill 74 during the final sitting of the 19th Legislative Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Any abstentions? The motion is carried. Bill 74 has had second reading.

    ---Carried

    Member for Nunakput.

    Bill 74: Forest Act, Carried
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

    Page 5841


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    Some Hon. Members

    Question.

    Bill 74: Forest Act, Carried
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

    Page 5841


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

    Bill 74: Forest Act, Carried
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Merci, Monsieur le President. I will speak to what this bill is all about and the process that resulted in the bill. I will also provide some comments on the bill and concerns with what is there and what is missing. There will be some praise but also harsh words that reflect my continuing concerns around the failure of Cabinet to implement its Open Government policy.

    To be honest, I simply edited the remarks I made almost four years ago to almost the same day on Bill 44 from the 19th Assembly. Some of those concerns are addressed in the new bill, I'm happy to say, but others have been completely ignored.

    What is Bill 74 all about?

    This is a much-needed bill to modernize our forestry practices and management, including fire control. The GNWT has a Forest Management Act and four sets of regulations under it. This legislation allows for the establishment of a supervisor and officers. The powers of the Minister are also set out. Agreements can be entered into and permits and licenses issued for forestry activities. An appeal process is set up. An enforcement regime is established, including offences. Penalties are set out along with regulation-making authority. There are regulations that set out more detail for permits and licenses for harvesting, commercial operations, and research. Charges and fees are laid out, including those related to reforestation. Recordkeeping is also required.

    The other three regulations create a forest management unit near Cameron Hills for the cutting of timber, zones for management purposes, and other areas for management.

    There is also a Forest Protection Act with no regulations under it. It deals largely with fire suppression, duties to report, and duties to assist. Offences and penalties are also established with ministerial power to create regulations.

    The old Bill 44, Forest Act, was introduced in the last Assembly but was eventually withdrawn due to complaints and concerns expressed by Indigenous governments, the public, and standing committee. There was no opportunity for Indigenous governments to review the final draft of the bill. It was very poorly constructed, Mr. Speaker. It would have taken a lot of work to properly reorganize it and to incorporate co-management and public participation. Thankfully, the then Minister withdrew it.

    Virtually all of Bill 44 has been carried over into Bill 74, with substantial reorganization and improvements I will discuss a little later.

    So Bill 74, Forest Act, will repeal and replace the two current pieces of forest legislation and their regulations. Modern forestry legislation should establish a planning and management regime and the bill does that while ensuring a collaborative approach with Indigenous governments and integration of co-management processes and bodies.

    Bill 44 sets out overall administrative roles and responsibilities. Sustainable forest management is outlined, followed by a detailed section on forest fires and suppression. Agreements, permits, and licenses are provided for in the bill and there is a detailed appeal process. Officers are created to provide enforcement through inspections, investigations, and seizures with fines and penalties as well. Alternative measures may be agreed upon. Regulation-making authority is spelled out. Lastly, there are some transitional provisions.

    Development of the bill

    The bill was co-drafted under the Intergovernmental Council Legislative Development Protocol of 2020. A technical working group comprised of Indigenous government staff and GNWT staff developed the bill. From every report I have heard, there was satisfaction with this process from those Indigenous governments that participated. The evidence of collaboration is clearly evident in the bill from new sections on collaboration and the integration of co-management bodies and processes. I look forward to hearing from these and other Indigenous governments during the review of the bill by standing committee.

    The Department of Environment and Natural Resources was the lead GNWT agency during this process. I cannot find any evidence of any public engagement by the department during this Assembly until a discussion paper was released on November 21, 2022. A so-called "have your say" webpage was set up on that date with instructions to submit comments by email or you could also apparently post questions. No questions or comments appear to have been posted on that page, Mr. Speaker. The deadline for comments was December 21st, 2022. That was also extended by a week. The phone number shown on the webpage did not work and was subsequently corrected. A public presentation on the discussion paper and process was requested by Alternatives North who broadcast the meeting on December 21st, 2022, and I observed the event. That group made a written submission that I tabled in the House earlier this week.

    After three years of co-development of the bill, the public was only included at the very end, with five weeks to comment, including some time over the busy holiday season.

    A so-called "what we heard" report was released on March 6, 2023 with four substantive pages of text. The preparation of the report took almost twice as long as the time given to the public to submit comments. Apparently, there was only one written submission, Mr. Speaker. I have seen a lot of "what we heard" reports during the Assembly but this is one of the worst one I have seen. Only one submission was received, as I've said, so we can easily compare the report against what was actually said and it appears to me, Mr. Speaker, that the department is deaf.

    The report dismisses all of the issues and concerns that were raised. The department claims it will prepare regulations at some future date that will allow for public participation. These same concerns were raised on Bill 44, were dismissed then, and not addressed in Bill 74, so I have little confidence the department will actually follow through in any serious way. I am very curious to know whether this public engagement actually resulted in any changes to the bill.

    The department did not share much information with standing committee on the development of the bill. There was request for information on a timeline in November 2022, but no briefing was offered.

    I do want to commend Cabinet for a recent decision -- I am commending Cabinet, Mr. Speaker, for a recent decision to provide a confidential advance copy of bills to Members after Cabinet has approved them and before they are introduced. This provides Members with additional time to review each bill before it receives first reading and becomes public and before remarks can be made on the principle of the bill at second reading. This will prove very helpful for Members who do wish to speak at second reading, and I sincerely thank Cabinet for this innovation. This would have helped me enormously in the last Assembly as I struggled to read a bill and then pull together comments overnight. That being said, it took me about four hours of reading and studying Bills 44 and 74 to understand what changes had been made and I will cover that in the next section, Mr. Speaker.

    Principle and Merit of the bill

    Here's what I said about Bill 44 in the last Assembly: "There are a number of very serious issues with this bill as I see it. It is almost as if the bill was half done before it was introduced. There is no logical order or flow to it. One might expect to see research and inventory work lead into the development of management plans, which would then form the basis for forest use through agreements, followed by licenses and permits that would authorize specific forestry activities that would be monitored and reported on. Although the bill contains most of these functions, they are scattered about in an almost incomprehensible fashion." That's what I said on the last bill, Mr. Speaker.

    I am very pleased to report that these drafting and organizational problems have been fixed in Bill 74. Thanks to the drafters and technical working group for sorting this out very well.

    I commend the technical working group and department for their hard work in integrating co-management into the bill and the various tools it creates. These include forest ecosystem management plans, forest management agreements, and development of terms and conditions for classes of various forest activities such as cutting, clearing, transport, research, mill operation, and more. The bill requires collaboration. This means sharing of information, opportunities for comment on these tools by Indigenous governments and organizations, renewable resource boards, and committees.

    Mr. Speaker, one of the most interesting parts of the bill provides for forest management committees to be established, recognized, and incorporated into decision-making for Indigenous peoples in areas outside of lands, resources, and self-government agreements. Particularly for the governments that are not part of the Intergovernmental Council, this is a really good thing, Mr. Speaker.

    A forest superintendent position is created with extensive powers but very few actual duties. For example, the forest superintendent "may" develop forest ecosystem management plans. These will be the very foundation of the whole system of agreements, permits, and licenses to make sure all forest activities are sustainable. It's not clear whether agreements and harvesting can or will take place without a plan, but I don't believe that's a very good idea. Another example, the forest superintendent "may" monitor the state of our forests and is required to report on that to Indigenous governments and co-management bodies but not the public.

    My greatest concern with the bill is that there is virtually no role for the public in any of the decision-making and sharing of information. That's not for the Intergovernmental Council to sort out but the GNWT's responsibility, and it has failed dismally. The only mention of the public is as a recipient of notices for fire bans and the restricted areas due to fires. There is no role for the public in developing forest ecosystem management plans, reviewing forest management agreements, permits or licenses, receiving notices of forest threats and actions. Mr. Speaker, community governments do not have to be notified of forest threats and actions either.

    There is also a lot of authority and power invested in the forest superintendent and officers to issue notices, directions, prepare plans and so on, but nowhere does it state that any of these documents are public or where they may be found. I raised the same issues earlier in this sitting under the current forest management legislation and got vague and incomplete answers. The logical place for all of this information to be located would be an online public registry accessible to all. This is how the co-management bodies work and how the public has come to expect where information can be found.

    Provisions for a public registry were added into the Protected Areas Act, the Public Land Act, and the Mineral Resources Act in the last Assembly, and that is desperately needed in this Bill. How is anyone supposed to know what is going on without a public registry? I simply don't understand the resistance of the department to create a public registry. Yes, there is a cost to doing this, but this government continues to receive funding from the federal government to responsibly manage resources. If we want responsible resource development, accountability, transparency, and public participation, a public registry is part of doing business right.

    There are problems with the appeal process laid out in the bill in that the only parties that seem to be able to initiate a dispute are an applicant that is denied or issued something they disagree with. Indigenous governments and co-management bodies can also file appeals. Although the issue of surface rights holders and their interests were raised, the bill does not address this issue. I am going to try to explain this a little bit more clearly, Mr. Speaker.

    If there was a lodge or a recreational leaseholder, or even a rights-based cabin in an area, a timber cutting license could be issued covering those locations. Those individuals would not have any right of appeal. If a mining claim were staked over those properties and there was a dispute over exploration activities, there is a process for resolving those issues. For forest activities, there is no provision to resolve any such dispute.

    The bill deals with fire suppression, and there is a mandatory requirement for prevention and preparedness plans for industrial activities. This is a good feature but there is no provision for any kind of review or public participation, even by a community government that may be nearby or called upon for assistance. The supervisor can provide reimbursement for those called upon to assist but there does not appear to be any dispute resolution process if the amount offered is not accepted.

    Fees or charges in respect of reforestation or land clearing are to be tracked as a special purpose fund and are to be used only for forest renewal activities. This is good, in principle. However, there is no requirement for any monitoring or evaluation of the effectiveness of such efforts and no public reporting either. This does not create any accountability or transparency.

    Again, as we have seen with many of the resource management bills from Cabinet, there is a troubling pattern of extensive and sweeping ministerial power and discretion without many checks or balances. However, in this bill a better balance is achieved with some checks and balances through required collaboration with Indigenous governments and co-management bodies. That being said, there are 58 listed areas for potential regulations that take up three pages in this 67-page bill.

    Lastly, there are few links or coordination specified with other resource management functions such as land use planning. Presumably, if there is an approved land use plan in place, any forest management agreement, permit, or license should conform to that plan and non-conforming applications should be automatically rejected. The bill is silent on this but needs to spell that out more clearly. And they should conform, Mr. Speaker.

    I look forward to working with my colleagues on the Standing Committee on Economic Development and Environment to hear what Indigenous governments, non-governmental organizations, industry, and the public have to say about improving this very important piece of legislation. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

    Bill 74: Forest Act, Carried
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Minister. The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill. Member for Frame Lake.

    Bill 74: Forest Act, Carried
    Second Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

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    Shane Thompson

    Shane Thompson Nahendeh

    Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member from YK South, that Bill 74, Forest Act, be read for the second time.

    I wish to advise the House that Bill 74, Forest Act, has been drafted under the Intergovernmental Council Legislative Development Protocol which sets out a collaborative process of development of legislation with respect to lands and resources between Intergovernmental Council, Indigenous governments, and the lands and resource department of the Government of the Northwest Territories.

    This bill repeals the Forest Management Act and the Forest Protection Act and replaces them with one comprehensive statute that

    • Allocates responsibility for the stewardship and management of the forests in the Northwest Territories among renewable resource boards, renewable resource councils, forest management committees, and the Government of the Northwest Territories;
    • Provides for the establishment of a dispute resolution process to be utilized where there is disagreement among the previously mentioned entities respecting the design or development of plans for management of forests and forest resources;
    • Establishes forest management and protection standards including wildfire prevention and control measures;
    • Establishes a licensing and permitting scheme with respect to the harvesting and use of forest resources;
    • Establishes appeals processes for persons affected by decisions made under this Act;
    • Establishes prohibitions, offences and penalties and sets out an investigation and enforcement regime; and
    • Authorizes the Minister to make regulations.

    Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act
    First Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

    Page 5840


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    The Speaker

    The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

    Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Bill 76 has had first reading. First reading of bills. Second reading of bills. Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources.

    Bill 76: An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act
    First Reading Of Bills

    March 9th, 2023

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    Kevin O'Reilly

    Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

    Merci, Monsieur le President. I present Bill 76, An Act to Amend the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, to be read for the first time. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.