Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause By Clause

Clause 1. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause 2. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause 3. Agreed.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause 4. Agreed.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill as a whole? Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Does this committee agree that Bill 15 is ready for third reading? Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

That is what we should be doing. What does this committee wish to do now? Member for Thebacha.

Mr. Chairman, we would be willing to deal with Bill 4, Bill 5, and Bill 6, if the committee concurs.

Does this committee agree that we deal with Bill 4? Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 4, An Act To Amend The Public Trustee Act

Bill 4, an Act to Amend the Public Trustee Act. Mr. Kakfwi, opening remarks?

Introductory Remarks

Thank you, chairman of the Standing Committee on Legislation, do you have any opening remarks? Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Standing Committee On Legislation Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Legislation also reviewed Bill 4, an Act to Amend the Public Trustee Act, at its public meeting on December 7, 1992. The committee would like to thank the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, and his officials from the public trustee office and the Department of Justice for presenting this bill and responding to committee Members' questions and concerns. This bill would amend the Public Trustee Act to specify that the public trustee may charge fees, expenses and disbursements against estates and trusts administered by the trustee.

It would also add a regulation making authority to allow the setting of fees payable from a trust or estate to the public trustee. Currently, fees are charged by the public trustee, but they are not specified in the act or in regulations. The public trustee would still be required to submit its accounts to a judge if this would be required by other Northwest Territories legislation. This bill would also provide that the public trustee may waive or remit prescribed fees where the fee would cause hardship or unfairness in the circumstances. During its review of this bill, the committee raised two significant issues with the Minister, which resulted in amendments to the bill and the committee stage. Under our new legislative process, the committee noted that Bill 4 did not include a "coming into force" clause.

The committee was concerned that if a bill was passed by the Assembly and provisions were incorporated requiring fees to be charged as set out in a regulation, the public trustee would no longer have the authority to charge fees that were not set in regulation. As the department has not completed its preparation of the regulations, the committee suggested that a "coming into force" clause be added so that the public trustee could continue to charge its current fees until the regulations are registered.

The committee also questioned the Minister on the rationale for repealing the regulation allowing fees to be levied against the common fund. The common fund is an investment pool administered by the public trustee on behalf of several estates and trusts. It was determined that the Minister had not intended that this bill have the effect of removing the authority of the public trustee to charge fees for the management of the common fund.

At its meeting on December 7,1992, the committee invoked the procedure available under the new legislative process and carried a motion to amend Bill 4 to add a "coming into force" clause and to retain the public trustee's authority to charge fees for the management of the common fund. Under the new process, the concurrence of the sponsor of the bill is required before the bill can be amended at the committee stage. The Minister concurred with the committee's motion to amend Bill 4, therefore, the bill that is before the honourable Members today differs from the one voted on by this House at second reading.

Members of the Standing Committee on Legislation wish to comment on the experience of the committee during the review of Bill 4. Had the Legislative Assembly passed the bill, as drafted by the Minister, the public trustee office risked being unable to charge fees for the management of the common fund and, being unable to charge any fees for its services until the regulations were drafted and registered. This could have had serious consequences and disrupted the administration of this important government service. At the very least, it would have required costly and time consuming amendments to the act during a later legislative session.

Mr. Chairman, the standing committee raises this point not as a specific criticism of the hard-working officials in Mr. Kakfwi's Legislative Division but rather because it is important to note the effectiveness of our current legislative process.

With the revisions which this House made to the legislative process at the outset of the 12th Assembly it is possible for problems like these to be identified and resolved at the committee stage. The process of open, thorough and vigorous review of bills exercised by the standing committee within the consensus-style framework of this government enables committee Members to work with the sponsoring Minister and to bring better legislation before this House.

This concludes my remarks on Bill 4, Mr. Chairman. I invite other committee Members to make any additional comments to the bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I may be ruled out of order, but I am going to try this anyway. Because of the complexity of this particular bill or any other bills that might be complicated in the future, I would have liked to see the standing committee's remarks in advance so that I was aware of exactly what they are commenting on and other sections that they might have a concern with in the bill. I wonder if this is a House rule or proper procedure?

Mr. Arvaluk, your concern cannot be taken into consideration. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.