Bill 31 has had second reading, and accordingly, the Bill stands referred to committee of the whole of bills and other matters; tabled document 9-12(2), Strength at Two Levels; tabled document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government; motion 6, discussion on Sobriety Clause and Contribution Agreements; committee report 10-12(2), Special Committee on Constitutional Reform Report, Multilateral Conferences on the Constitution; tabled document 62-12(2), Report on Northwest Territories Operations at Expo 1992 as at May 31, 1992; Update on National Constitutional Reform Negotiations, Minister's statement 82-12(2); committee report 17-12(2), Report on the Review of the 1992-93 main estimates; and Bill 33, Appropriation Act No. 2, 1992-93. Mr. Pudluk, you are in the Chair.

Now this committee will come to order. What does this committee wish? Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, if I could recommend that we deal with the main estimates and committee report 17-12(2).

Is this committee agreed?

-----agreed

Thank you. I think that everyone has a copy of the details of the main estimates, 1992-93. I believe they are all on your table. Also, committee report 17-12(2), this little booklet here, is also on your table. I wonder if the Minister of Finance would like to make opening remarks at this time?

1992-93 Main Estimates, Opening Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we received on Friday afternoon, the order of appearance requested by the Standing Committee on Finance. We are pleased to comply with that order of appearance, and consequently Ministers are ready to answer questions in that regard. I believe that the first order of appearance was education, and Mr. Arvaluk is ready to proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Okay. Mr. Todd. Do you have any opening remarks? Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may, prior to proceeding by department, there are some general motions that we would like to move forward this afternoon, and then we can move to the Department of Education, if that is okay with the Minister of Finance?

Mr. Minister.

I concur, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Todd. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, are we dealing with general comments at this particular time?

We are dealing with the Finance Committee's comments right now, and maybe later on we can move on to individual Members. Mr. Todd.

So, if I may, as I stated two minutes ago, we have some general comments about managing change. There are

about seven general resolutions that we would like to get through the House today. Each of the individual members of the Standing Committee on Finance will deal with the departmental resolutions that come forward. As we stated earlier, the territorial governmental programs were previously designed to follow what we call a southern model, and that is the way we are currently doing things.

However, the statistical evidence, particularly the employment and economic well-being of our people, shows that this model does not appear to work very well in the Northwest Territories. As a result of this, the Assembly and the Cabinet recognized, and have approved, a number of motions for some fundamental change. We need to discard the old model and change the ways we do things, in order to successfully respond to our peoples' needs.

The government is struggling to respond, and the committee is concerned that the government needs more support to manage the changes in Reshaping Northern Government. We are concerned that the desired results may not be achieved in a reasonable time span, and there is somewhat of a sense of urgency. The people affected by the desired changes, have not yet been consulted, prepared, or provided suitable direction, training or support. As a result, the need for change is misunderstood and often resisted by the bureaucracy, no matter how well intentioned they may be.

While coercive change may be fast, there is no buy-in to the process. For example, we in the Legislative Assembly, and by extension the people in the North, still do not know what the plans and priorities of the government are. The civil service seems equally in the dark, and somewhat misguided. Participating change is slower, however, there is a buy-in, a desire to cooperate.

We know that there is a diversive opinion in this House. However, it is up to this Assembly to provide the vision, and the government to carry it out as soon as possible. This Assembly previously approved a motion for a one week strategic planning workshop, to develop a shared vision of what good government looks like. This was to be done and completed in conjunction with the 1992-93 main estimates review. The government has recommended this be undertaken by the Reshaping Northern Government Working Group, made up of three Ministers and three ordinary Members. We have no argument with this.

Motion to Adopt Recommendation 1, Carried

However, limited action has occurred to date, and I think there is a need to move that up. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to move our first motion of the day. I move that the Committee recommends that the Reshaping Northern Government Working Group complete the previously moved strategic planning workshop by the beginning of the new fiscal year. Goals of the workshop should include: 1) to develop a consensus on a new government model; 2) to implement the fundamental changes required effectively; and 3) to implement the changes on a timely basis.

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion. Before I ask for the vote, I have to have a quorum, I do not have a quorum right now. Question has been called. All of those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion is in relationship to the cost of the civil service. The Standing Committee on Finance is concerned about the rising cost of the civil service, and it must be brought under control. If it continues to spiral and accelerate at the pace it is accelerating, there will be no money left in which to deliver programs to the people that need it most.

The previous Assembly approved a motion to control government expenditures by reducing total person years by five percent within a two year period. This was a very specific clear direction. The government's response was that organizational changes may yield person year reductions, was somewhat disappointing to the committee.

While there has been a one percent decrease in the overall number of person years in the government, the committee believes that the government has not gone enough in reducing the costs of the bureaucracy. The committee feels strongly that the government should be put on notice that the Assembly expects this motion to be followed, and expects bureaucracy to shrink in its numbers.

Motion to Adopt Recommendation 2, Carried

With that Mr. Chairman, I would like to move the second motion. I move that the committee recommends that the government review options to reduce the costs of the bureaucracy for presentation with their 1993-94 main estimates, that the government review by October, 1993 the total employee enumeration package to develop a northern package which is appropriate for today's environment, that the government control its expenditures by reducing total person years in departments, boards and agencies by five percent within the two years, and that the Assembly not approve any overall increase in the budget for salaries, wages and benefits in the 1993-94 main estimates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the order. Madam Premier.

Mr. Chairman, this is just a matter of procedure as some of these recommendations, because they are recommendations to the government, we would like to ask some clarification questions. It is not that we have any differences with the recommendations, but it is to seek further clarification. For example, Mr. Chairman, on the first recommendation, to develop a consensus on new governmental models, the clarification would be, how would that be an absence? How does that fit in to the Constitutional Development Committee that we have, how does that fit into the leadership model of developing a consensus for a new western style model of government? These are the types of things that I just want to get some clarification on. How we can ask or ask for clarification on those issues? This step was just an example. Thank you.

Madam Premier, I understand your concern, you should be allowed a question. There is a motion on the floor at the moment. After this, if some Ministers would like clarification, and after we have passed this motion, we can do that. Mr. Todd.

I have no problem explaining the motion or understanding the motion, and I am prepared to debate it. At the present time, I would like to see it go through first. I would like to finish the seven motions ,and then we can come back to further discussion, or we can discuss it in committee. It does not matter to me what the process is.

Madam Premier.

I think it is something, Mr. Chairman, that is a procedural issue. I would like to see if there is a possibility before the motion is passed, or as a recommendation is written out, how do we gain more information or clarity? That is all I am asking.

It is useless to me, if a motion passes, and then we come back to it. It is the procedure that we have square away, that is all.

I think the Standing Committee on Finance had tried to explain as much as possible in writing before each recommendation. If the government wants more clarification before they move, I will allow the government to ask questions, before moving the recommendations.

Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, could I ask if that particular ruling also applies to other Members who are not part of the Standing Committee on Finance, to ask questions? I believe procedurally, it is normal that all Members are allowed to ask questions.