Bill 17 is now ready for third reading. I would like to thank Mr. Ng and his witnesses. Would the committee agree to possibly a five minute break here while we arrange for the next item.

We will take a five minute break.

--- SHORT RECESS

Order please. We have concluded consideration of Bill 17: Business Corporations Act and when we left off in Committee of the Whole the other day we were dealing with Ministers' Statement 86-13(3), Seniors' Fuel Subsidy Program. We were on general comments. Are there any further general comments on the Seniors' Fossil Fuel Subsidy Ministers' Statement. Mr. Krutko.

In regards to the fuel subsidy I have been acquiring some information from my riding in regards to the effects that it has had on the people that I represent. Thirty some odd people have been affected by this decision which are just a small amount of people that were eligible.

Based on the 86 people in Inuvik who have been excluded, 30 some of those people are in the Mackenzie Delta riding. A lot of the people that are on the list, there are two widows, one in MacPherson, and one is Inuvik. The one her husband has just passed away just last year and, also, one in MacPherson who I have mentioned several times in my statement who is raising a granddaughter and also that she does sew to supplement her income.

I would like to see if there is a possibility of increasing those rates so that those people that still, as far as I am concerned, fall below the poverty rate, can still be able to retain this program. I have been seeing what the implication has been with regards to my riding and, of course, you can see from the people that I have on my list, a lot of these people, yes, have been former employees of the government, who are all presently pensioned, are no longer working for this government. They are working in some areas for the Power Corporation, or janitors at schools, or work with the Department of Renewable Resources in the past.

These people are the people that have set the examples of being able to retain a job, been able to maintain a home, a family, and a lot of these people that we are talking about are also supplementing the families that are associated with them. Such as raising grandchildren who have nowhere else to go.

I think you have to realize that, especially in the north when it comes to the Aboriginal family, the family unit does not just consist of two people, you have to consider that they take seriously the grandparents and also the grandchildren who are closely knitted together.

For them to continue on with the family values of respecting the family, regardless if it is children or grandparents. They have to continue on with that process where you may have large families and the problems we are seeing with overcrowding, the shortage of housing, and what not. This is one means the people have is to try to maintain a family unit and also maintain the home. In a lot of these homes the grandparents are raising a lot of their grandchildren and it is no fault of their own, but just the way things are, that is the case.

I think we seriously have to consider for the sake of this program that we have to...we are talking about trying to look at additional funds elsewhere, and I believe we can do that. The Minister stated that the possibility of looking for funds to build a training centre and managed to spend eight million dollars to develop the RCMP facility here in Yellowknife which is presently under construction. We were able to find new dollars in the capital which were moved into new projects which was basically in regards to the business reviews which we have done over the last week. So if there is a will, there is a way that we can find those funds.

So, my question to the Minister is, will he consider looking at some sort of mechanism to implement, sort of, a schedule of income eligibility and take into account the regional disparities and also the different cost of living, in regards to the fossil fuel and, also, in regards to the different northern communities?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as I indicated when we were discussing this item two days ago, I have looked within my budget and have not been able to find additional funds that the member would like to see me put back into the program.

At that time, I also committed to discussing with the Standing Committee on Social Programs any changes that we might be looking at undertaking for next year. This program, the operational guidelines, have already been issued to departmental offices, contracts have been let with companies to provide fuel to seniors based on those operational guidelines. I do not have the flexibility to change them at this point in time.

I am willing to discuss with the Seniors Society, their suggestions for changing the program next year, and from there taking some guidance from the Standing Committee. This program must be considered along with all of our income support programs and while there is a difference in the cost of living across the Northwest Territories, our income support programs recognize that. This one aspect of the income support programs does not necessarily reflect that differential of cost of living, but taken as a whole, our income support programs do. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Any further general comments. Mr Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I find it, kind of disheartening that, basically, the Minister is saying that it is a problem to get fuel suppliers in the communities to change a work order, basically, because it is too much work. I think that is, kind of, a cop out in regards to a simple effort such as that. I mean, basically, all it takes is to notify your suppliers of who these people are and make them aware that there has been a change through a letter or re-submitting new names to that list.

I do not think you are talking additional dollars. Presently, we supplement tax breaks for large companies in the Northwest Territories which, largely, retain large amounts of tax dollars from this government in regards to having the lowest corporate tax rate and also, the tax breaks that we are looking at, and if we can find subsidies for those people, I do not see why we cannot find subsidies for the people that, in regards to our elders, who have maintained their lives in the Northwest Territories and continue to do so.

All the people I am talking about in regards to the Mackenzie Delta are aboriginal people. Who were born and raised in the Northwest Territories and will die in the Northwest Territories. For the Minister to say that it is going to be a major difficulty for him to change his view. It was pretty easy for them to, basically, move five million dollars around and find dollars to carry them over and what not and pass a supplementary appropriations and I do not see, for the change I am talking about, in regards to the change and the schedule for those people, that we are not talking two hundred thousand dollars, it could be a lot less than that, it could be fifty thousand, it could be a hundred thousand depends on the criteria we are using.

What I am suggesting is that we use a formula that will exclude a lot of the higher bracket incomes that people arrived at. So that the people that we are talking about are those people at the middle or low end of the wage scale. So I am not talking about opening it up to everybody in the Northwest Territories, I am talking about looking at some sort of a formula that we can look at.

So, if that is possible, would the Minister consider looking at that?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, as I said, I am willing to look at options for next year. The member keeps bringing up things that are not relevant. The RCMP facility, that is not GNWT dollars, the one that is being built in Yellowknife here. It certainly has nothing to do with the budget that this Legislature approved for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment.

The tax rate that we charge companies in the Northwest Territories, again, it is this Legislative Assembly that has the final say about what tax rates are charged in the Northwest Territories. The rate that we charge now in our corporate taxes is intended to encourage companies to file their income taxes in the Northwest Territories so that we have more money with which we can provide social programs. If you increase the rate of taxes, the number of companies filing their returns in the Northwest Territories goes down, so it is probably a zero sum game.

In terms of moving money around, if the member wants to check he will see that there has been no money moved from the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to another department or vice versa. There has been money moved around within the department when contracts came in under budget and other projects came in over budget, we have had to compensate. Yes, we have moved some money around. But, nothing came in or out from the department. It was all done within.

The member talks about instituting a sliding scale. Because some of the fuel contracts have been let, it is impossible to institute a sliding scale, as we would have to reduce the amount of funding that was given in some communities to increase it in others. I do not have the flexibility to add money. And that is what the member is suggesting.

So, short of reducing the subsidy in some areas there is no other way to increase it in others. Since some of the contracts have gone out, it is hardly reasonable to go back to people who have applied for a subsidy and been told they are going to get the equivalent of five cords of wood, that all of a sudden, sorry, we have to cut you back to three and a half or four cords. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Further general comments. Mr, Ningark. I did not realise, Mr. Ningark, that Mr. Krutko had not finished yet, would you agree to let him finish? Okay, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister has got a good point that he cannot change anything, yet there is a mechanism there that allows for change where people can be added to the list if they can find a means to say, well, I will go on welfare and then I can qualify. I mean, there is a mechanism there now that you are telling people that they can go there if they can prove that they..so there is a mechanism for change, yet you are saying that there is not.

So, which is it? There is an avenue where people can go forward to the social worker and try to plead poverty and get added to the list, yet, you are telling us that you cannot change it, period. Yet, that is my understanding, that there is that mechanism. Is that the case?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chair, any resident of the Northwest Territories can present themselves to an income support worker and demonstrate that they have financial need and their needs will be supported. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Would the Minister like to respond to that or carry on? Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair this is no way meant to be disrespectful of the seniors and what they have contributed to the Northwest Territories.

This program must be considered as part of our Income Support Program. It is not an entitlement. It is not something that every senior has collected until now. It is something where you have to own your own home, you have to be over 60 years of age and what we are doing is ensuring that the program is only provided to those who are in financial need. This government provides a number of programs to seniors, and all its residents that are classified as income support, and if somebody needs heat in their home, we will make sure that it is provided.

This is not going to mean that somebody will freeze. This change was undertaken in order to ensure that people who could afford to look after themselves were doing that. So, I hope that Members will remember that this program is being delivered by the Department of Education, Culture & Employment because it was seen as an Income Support Program and was moved to the Department at the same time as Social Assistance, for administration as part of that program.

That is the reason that it is within this Department and not within the Department of Health and Social Services. It must be viewed together with what we are doing for Income Support. Thank you Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Mr. Dent.

Madam Chair. I agree totally with the Member that we need to change our social housing policies, to ensure that there is equity within our system. I think it is the goal of the Ministers of the social envelope to make sure that happens. I also want to make sure that the Member understands that in November of this year I will be introducing to this House changes to the Income Support Program which will mean that an able bodied young man is not going to be able to just sit around and watch t.v. at home any more. I want people to know that we are going to make sure that there is more equity and fairness in the system and that those who need the support will be given the support.

The Member may be interested to know that in 95/96 in the Kitikmeot Region, there were eight people who collected the Wood Fuel Subsidy and, of those who are no longer eligible for the program, not one of them had collected Social Assistance in the previous 15 months. These are not generally the lowest income people who have been removed from the system. These - the people who are not eligible - are typically those who have some resources. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments. Mr. Ningark.