Thank you, Mr. Picco. To the motion, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I think there is a lot of debate out there. We are talking about how we support our elders. We want to help them out. We want to thank them for the years of service they have given to us and also how much we love them. That is great, motherhood and apple pie statements, but I think the statement that we are going to put here today is on this vote on the floor, and basically those people vote in favour, and those people that do not, and I think we are all talking about, well, where do we get the money from? We just made a motion the other day, giving the Cabinet a slap on the wrist, because of some projects that were revoked.

I believe there was a project for the Fort Simpson Recreation Complex where the money is going to be taken back, some $500,000. There is $500,000. We have a 2.2 million dollars surplus sitting in the pension fund sitting in Vancouver, yet no one talks about that which is basically dollars that come from this Government, which is a surplus, so maybe we can look at that.

I mean there is other areas where we are talking about a billion dollars budget, and basically the cost everybody is worrying about, it could not be any more than what has been taken out. You have been taken out $200,000. So, we are talking about how much it may cost, at the maximum it is going to be $200,000, which is going to be less because we are already almost into November, because the need probably will not be there.

We are talking about empowering communities, giving communities an opportunity to put people to work. In my region this is one area where people look forward to find work is being able to cut wood through this Program, for seniors, which generates employment in a lot of communities where we have timber as a means of supplying the subsidy to the people in those communities. There is another job initiative that we are looking at. We are talking about stimulating the economy, generating jobs, putting people to school.

Also the other area we can possibly look at for cuts is the Minister of Education saying, well where can we get this money from this Department. I believe your Department has some people who have used the system for years as students who basically make a living on going to university year after year and taking one course after another and at the end of the day there is individuals trying to get into taking one course, yet some people have five or six courses under their belt, they can have degrees and everything. Why are those people not paying for going to universities and take a trade year after year and end up with five or six trades, yet we do not have individuals who want to get a trade, cannot get in there.

There is a whole bunch of money that we can look at saving there. Take a look at those programs you deliver for those people. Those people take a program, they should put something back into the system by using those skills to work within that field that they took that trade for. So I think that is another area that the Minister can probably look at.

Also in regards to the whole idea that seniors' in our public housing do not get a subsidy. People in the housing units subsidized by Government do not pay a fee, that is the other thing that people do not realize, they are not paying. People in their own homes have to maintain and pay their power bills, pay their fuel bills, pay the cost to maintain them. If anything breaks, they are responsible for it, and the whole question about people living in these homes who are able citizens who are paying $32 per month, and basically having a great time, yet these people have maintained these houses all their lives to try to...most of them are long term government employees, or long term people who have made a statement to the other people...you do not have to depend on government...let us basically look at ways that we can generate...so there is those avenues that we can look at.

We had the question by Mr. Steen in regards to the bid. That is thirty million dollars that we can possibly look at. These are things that we are looking at, yet we are talking about a measly $200,000, we just managed to find the budget review that there is five million dollars of projects that have been moved around, and that was no problem. Yet we are talking $200,000. What is $200,000 out of five million.

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That is only about one fifth of one percent. So, I would like to state that people are talking about meeting with the elders, and basically giving them the statement. This is my statement, for the people who are going to meet with the elders. Maybe you should have something you can take to the elders and tell them, that we have done this, we are looking at it, we are trying to get it back in. We passed a motion, here it is. Then when you go to meet with them, they have something to talk about. But do not go to them and give them lip service, say, we will try to look at it, but we cannot get it in this year. We are going to do it next year. That is all you can tell them, but through this motion, I believe you could be able to consider looking at it.

With that, I would like to, for those people who are going to support this motion, stand up for what you believe, and those who people who do not, basically you can talk to the people you represent. I am making this statement for the people that I represent in my riding, which is thirty some odd people, and I believe that those people have long served the Northwest Territories, and raising their families and being independent, and we should get them a bonus for that. With that, I call for a recorded vote at this time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. To the motion. The question is being called with a recorded vote. Please stand all those in favour of the motion.

All those opposed to the motion, please stand.

All those abstaining.

The motion is defeated. There were eight in favour, twelve against, and one abstention. General comments. Mr. Henry.

Okay, we will just give a couple of seconds for the motion to be circulated, and then we will...you cannot hear me, oh, pardon me, I am sorry. We will give Members a chance to look at the motion, and, then we will take comments to the motion. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Steen.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this motion seems to suggest that the last time the social

committee looked at this issue they did not take into consideration whether it was a fair and equitable subsidy to the seniors. Is that true? Did the committee not do a good job? Are they going to do any better this time? Is there some new points to be considered here that were not considered before?

The only point I am aware of that has not been considered before was, it was not discussed with the seniors. They did not have an opportunity to put forward their opinion. What this thing also suggests to me, is that we are again evading the issue, passing it on to another committee. One of the reasons I supported the previous motion was it sort of ended the discussions. We have decided to do something. This thing here does not decide to do anything. It is going to report back to the Legislative Assembly for another review. We are going to go around and around on this thing until we finally run out of money. That is about all we are going to accomplish. So I cannot support this motion.

Thank you, Mr. Steen. To the motion. I have Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Henry, Mr. Enuaraq. We have a few more speakers here. Mr. Miltenberger, please.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The previous motion was something that put the responsibility on cabinet. It was a recommendation to consider. We are going to talk to RMC, what those motions are. They make us all feel good, but if we do not come up with something that works, cabinet does their job, carries on, and those motions sit there. They will consider it. They say they have done that. So, you guys, especially some of the two-track types, if you want to vote for that, that is fine, keeping in mind that it is a feel good kind of motion. So that you can stand up and beat your breast. The motion that it is on the table, I am supporting it.

The social programs committee, like every other committee, including the one Mr. Steen sat on, was faced with a budget cutting exercise, as opposed to any kind of substantive program review. We were presented with a list of options, on the assumption, and I think it was an assumption well made, that there was time to do all the proper things as we rushed down to get a budget passed. So, did we do everything right? Probably not. Did we communicate enough? Did the Minister communicate enough? Probably not. Communications is one of our big problems since we started.

If we take this back to Committee, then it is something that we have to work out with cabinet. We have a joint responsibility. We have a sense of ownership. If you want to think that it is just a matter of going around to the committee, do not attribute motives that you may have on your own committee, to the committee that I am sitting on, because that is not the intent that I have. I want to look at this seriously to resolve this issue.

I have no problems standing up to the seniors in my community, including my dear sweet mother, to talk about this issue. I support this motion, and there are things that have changed in the last six or eight months. We are six or eight months wiser, and these issues have come up. They have come up across the board in all the committees. Can every committee Member here say that they have done everything perfectly? I do not think so. Nor any Cabinet Minister.

So either we are in this together, let us work out some solutions. These shots, and what I consider a lot of it is empty grandstanding, well that is fine, if you want to do that, go ahead and do it. I want to get solutions here. So I am in support of this motion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. I think, Mr. Henry, with your permission, we will let Mr. Enuaraq go next, seeing as he is the Chair of the Social Programs Committee. Would that be alright, Mr. Henry? Thank you. Mr. Enuaraq. To the motion.

Thank you, Mr. Enuaraq. To the motion Mr. Henry.

Thank you, Mr. Henry. To the motion, Mr. Ootes.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have the faith in the Committee that they will address this subject properly. The committee system has worked very well for us and I feel that I do not have any questions about the fact that they will address this in a proper way and come up with some solution to the question before us.

I want to remind members that we have advised that if you wish to make comments on this further go to the Committee meeting, if you have concern about where this subject is going, go to the Committee meeting. That is my position with Mr. Krutko and his motion as well. Mr. Krutko is very concerned he has a very good point to put forward, but I think he can go to the Social Committee at this point, and make his point there as well.

So, it has not stopped, there is a lot of information coming forward and I think it is properly addressed by the Social Committee. I am not at all concerned, if seniors want to address me about this subject and dress me down about it I do not have a problem because I am not prepared to make decision on the basis of not having the proper information. I am looking for a solution as well, to this problem and so far, the only problem that has been posed to me has been by the Seniors Society and the Seniors Association Advisory Council and their problem was one of communication, but there was not an adamant statement that they want this rolled back.

Now, I am not in favour of, sorry, let me try and address this properly, I am in favour of looking at retaining his, but I ave to face facts here, not just some statements that are coming from other people telling me this. I want to know. Are seniors upset over this or are they not? And, as I say, the Seniors Society has addressed me very strongly with some areas of concern. I am going to put those before the Social Committee and others can put their issues before it and out at the end, hopefully, we will get some solution to this. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. To the motion, Mr.

Erasmus.

Mr. Erasmus, you would need to make a motion to extend sitting hours to conclude this matter. Would you like to make a motion?