Does the committee agree?

Mr. Whitford, bring in the witnesses.

I would like to ask the Minister to introduce his witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my left is the acting deputy minister for the department, Mr. Eric Colbourne; and, on my right, the director of financial and management services for the department, Mr. Paul Devitt.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Welcome to the committee. I will open the floor to general comments. Are there any general comments? Mr. Picco.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Are there any other general comments? Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Mr. Dent, would you like to respond to the comments?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if I could respond to Mr. Picco's comments first. The Member from Iqaluit sounded like he was recommending that the Minister move to force the amalgamation of boards very quickly. We have to recognize that, having granted a level of autonomy to the regions and the regional structures, we have to work through what the future changes might be. As Mr. Ningark has alluded to, there is a concern in the regions about forcing that amalgamation. I know that the NIC report recommended that there be one board but the NTI response to that was very critical of the one-board approach. I understand that the NIC is subsequently re considering their approach.

We have to allow the people in the Nunavut region to get a handle on what they see as being the best approach and to work with them to make sure that that happens. The Member may not know that the three boards have, in fact, jointly commissioned a study to see if there are ways in which they can effectively work together while maintaining their own independent representation. The boards themselves have taken this on. I think that it's a good planning exercise but we have to let that sort of thing take its course. I think I heard in the committee report that it's essential that communities drive how they take control of the agenda. This is one way in which I would be reluctant, as Minister, to jump in and remove the level of autonomy that we have achieved with boards and force a solution. The boards have demonstrated that they are looking for solutions to cut down their costs and we have to let them have some time to do that.

In terms of consolidation at headquarters, as recommended by Mr. Picco; if you take a look at the budget, you'll see that the biggest cut was, in fact, taken at headquarters. The biggest cuts were taken there. The goal has been to keep as much money as possible in programs and to cut the administration as much as is possible along the way. In terms of cancelling capital projects; in fact, the cut from $35 million a year in capital projects to $25 million a year is an ongoing one. We are going to have less money to deliver the projects than what we had when previous five-year plans were out there. We are going to have to take a look at cancelling capital projects, I guess, but at this point in time, the projects are being deferred because it was the feeling that those projects, if they had got into the five-year capital plan in the first place, were justified. We are going to have to, given the magnitude of the reduction to our capital plan, re-examine every single project. The Member can be assured that, as the department comes forward with capital projects, each one of them will have to pass new standards as to whether or not they should proceed, based on the amount of funding that we have.

The Member has my assurance that if we have built opulence into our projects that shouldn't be there, we will be taking that out. The construction of projects has changed in the past few years; the way that schools are constructed. At one point in time, it was felt that schools without windows would be the best way to go. Our thinking has changed significantly on that and the effect that natural light may have on the ability to learn in certain circumstances. I'm not sure that adding windows necessarily adds to the cost of the buildings, but the Member can be assured that if we can find examples of what he would call opulence -- in other words, I'm taking from that, frivolous design features that may increase the cost of the project without increasing the functional ability of the school or learning centre to perform its job -- we'll certainly look at taking them out.

Mr. Chairman, I think I addressed Mr. Ningark's concern about amalgamation. In response to his question about talking to the Kitikmeot board, I have, in fact, met with the Kitikmeot board. It was before the budget was issued so the discussion was somewhat general. They were given a clear understanding that we are no longer conducting business as we were before, the fiscal game has changed significantly and that, by and large, over the next three years, all boards are going to have to cover forced growth from within the dollars they are being given this year. They have been given a clear indication of what our expectation of funding is over the course of the next three years and given a chance to plan for that. All boards have received that sort of information, although it had to be in a general sense because the budget had not been tabled in this Legislature. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. My apologies, Mr. Picco, for not letting the Minister reply to you before I called Mr. Ningark. Did you have any further comments on the review?

Yes, Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Any further comments on that, Mr. Dent?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to agree with the Member that community control is the essential and most important item that we need to see in the future of education. I think that the new Education Act will move us significantly along the road towards that increased community control.

However, not every community is going to be able to have the resources to hire a superintendent or to hire perhaps the financial expertise. There will always be a need for some of these functions to be performed at a regional level in order to keep the costs economic. I think the new act, in fact, means that the boards are not going to be, as the Member put it, in control of what happens at the local level. The new act allows local education authorities to have significant control over education in the community. We will still need to provide some services at a regional level and I think the boards are perhaps the best way of doing that in at least the foreseeable future.

In terms of the opulence question, Mr. Chairman, I think that I will welcome the Member's comments if he sees plans that he feels are opulent. I would certainly enjoy an opportunity to discuss that with him on a case-by-case basis. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Ningark, do you have further comments to make under general comments?

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Would you like to respond to that, Mr. Dent?

Mr. Chairman, I believe the Member's comment was a statement rather then a question. I should perhaps point out, though, that it's not a question of moving the college from one location to another but a question of trying to provide a better balance of the distribution of courses throughout Nunavut that we are trying to achieve. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Does anyone else want to make general comments? Mr. Roland.

During the overall review of the budget, I noted that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment had an area of forced growth of $17 million and then new initiatives of $8.7 million. I was concerned with new initiatives and forced growth because of the budget predicament. At the time, I had asked if we could get some explanation of what that is and I wonder if the Minister might be able to answer that for me.

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the $17 million in forced growth, $6.8 million was in a base deficiency in social assistance. When social assistance was transferred to Education, Culture and Employment from the Department of Health and Social Services, it was known to be deficient in the amount of funding that was provided; that is, in the budget that was approved in the previous year, it was already known that there would be a shortage of about $6.8 million.

The next largest part of forced growth would be in education board contributions. Were the formula not to have changed for this current fiscal year, education board contributions would have increased by $5.15 million and that is to take into account the growth in the number of students in the school system in one year.

The next largest part of growth was student financial assistance, $2.772 million; that is, to reflect again, the growth in the numbers of students who are qualified to receive student financial assistance.

As well, there is somewhat of an increase in the numbers of northerners who are qualifying for student financial assistance and they tend to have more families, so the cost per student is going up as we go along in the program.

Next was $2.126 million in forced growth in what was projected to be an increase in the number of clients accessing social assistance. So this is apart from the base deficiency which was to make up for an historical deficient situation with the budget. It was projected that there would be over $2 million in increased need in the Northwest Territories from people for the program.

The early childhood program was projected to be at an increase of $391,000 and this is a simple estimate in the increase in the number of young people who would be in early childhood spaces which this government, by a formula, helps provide funding assistance for.

The next area of forced growth was one that Mr. Enuaraq was talking about earlier today. That is the seniors' supplementary benefit. That's projected to grow by $73,000 in this fiscal year, not because of any increase to the formula but just in an increase in the numbers of seniors who will be accessing the program.

And, in the college funding allocation system, we are projecting growth of $29,000 and I'm advised that is for new facilities.

Mr. Chairman, on the initiatives that the Member is talking about that the department has proposed, does the Member want to go through those, too, on a case-by-case basis. If you would like, I can read them into the record, too, Mr. Chairman, but perhaps we can find out if we want to go through them on an individual basis, as well.