This is page numbers 703 - 737 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Madam Minister. Ms. Ballantyne.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons we enter into block funding agreements with taxed-based municipalities is really recognizing they are at a stage of development where they are really able to manage a large capital budget and to plan and get economies of scale, et cetera, on their own. It is in recognition of their capacity to manage their own capital budget and to make those decisions that block funding agreements offer them flexibility once they are funded, to respond to changes in community priorities. Now if they were not being block funded, the department would be bringing those changes in community priorities from year to year forward to the House, through our capital planning process. The difference is that block funded communities do not need to go to those extra steps. They can make those changes year to year, as they see fit. Their capital budgets are still approved through the local municipal budget development process and through a voting process there. It is not that they are off on their own, doing something in secret. They have to come back and have their budgets voted and approved, through their councils. What we typically see is some changes as they get into the future years of the block funding agreement from what we thought they would do, when we are in negotiations. That is what happens in the normal capital planning process as well. What we think nontax-based communities funding are going to be doing in year three of the plan changes, as we get towards that year. That is why we see that flexibility, creating some changes in the plan as originally negotiated. That is the whole purpose behind block funding, to give them that flexibility. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Ms. Ballantyne. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand the purpose and how it would work. Some of the concern in any community is that initial negotiations are based on, for example if it is a hospital or a sewer system or something of that nature, based on the importance and the need. I believe I heard a bit of a brief description on what is included in the $1.5 million for Fort Simpson. There is talk of an emergency road to the island. That brings back some memories of some discussion that went on, not too long ago with the importance of the road and later being changed. I believe that funding was approved through supplementary appropriation, not too long ago so that they could get their retrofit on the centre and we hear the road coming back up. That is the concern. One instance, how things are going in order of importance. To know for that amount if it is a three year term, it is $4.5 million in the capital alone. That is the concern. Maybe one of the things we have heard a couple times is, can we state some of the items that are included in there? That might satisfy some of the questions. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Ms. Ballantyne.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can provide clarification that might satisfy the Members on this point. In terms of Fort Simpson, I am advised in this year's capital plan, the following items are included: a sewage treatment plant upgrade, which is a requirement of the water board, this is not something that is discretionary by the community. It is something they have to do. There is work to be done on the arena and the community centre. Main street improvements, district heating, which should result in some energy savings to the community. Some ambulance equipment and some computer equipment for the hamlet office. Mr. Chairman, the emergency road that was referenced earlier is not in their current plan. It is not something they have identified as something they will do. It is something that used to be in the capital plans. There is an example of something where the community has shifted its priority to things like the sewage treatment plan upgrade, which they really have no choice but to proceed with this year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Ms. Ballantyne. Total region, $5.817 million. I will recognize Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question in terms of the layout of this, given the fact that these are three- to four-year agreements, why are there no prior years or future years listed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Christensen.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Christensen

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe this is the procedure that was laid out for setting up the main estimates. Annual contributions are showing up as one year amounts, as opposed to multi-year projects. It is the convention that has been adopted for preparation of the main estimates. In the forecasting plan document, it would show the amounts annually for the period of the block funding agreements. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Christensen. Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I also have some clarification on why on the operations and maintenance side, once again related to Fort Simpson where they get I think $870,000 a year, they get 30 to 40 percent more than communities that are bigger. In some cases like Inuvik,

considerable farther north, with probably greater costs. Why that significant discrepancy? $870,000 compared to $623,000 in Hay River, $593,000 in Fort Smith and $547,000 or thereabouts in Inuvik?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Christensen.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Christensen

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Generally our operations and maintenance support for taxed-based municipalities has been consistent on a population basis, except there is one major component of the funding has been our equalization contribution that we provide to communities. That is part of the operations and maintenance block funding. The feature of equalization contributions is that as the assessable tax-base increases and as the population increases, there is a tendency for that contribution to decrease. In the pot of money the department used to allocate to major municipalities, it tended to be smaller municipalities like Fort Simpson that got much more of that share, of what was called equalization contributions. The larger communities like Yellowknife got a very small portion of it because it was meant to be a kind of equalization funding so that in spite of the fact they are all taxed-based municipalities, there was some contribution there to recognize that some communities had a greater or lesser ability to raise their own revenue. That would be what would be influencing the difference in the operations and maintenance contributions that are showing up here under the block funding amounts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Christensen. Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not conversant enough in this equalization formula to ask many technical questions, but it does seem to me to be quite significant in the difference. Is equalization the only factor that accounts for that significant discrepancy or difference?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Christensen.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Christensen

I believe it is the main factor, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Christensen. Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, thank you. Fort Simpson is starting a new block funding arrangement. By all indications have negotiated what appears to be on a comparative basis to communities larger than themselves, a gold plated kind of arrangement. Other communities are going to be lapsing their block funding agreements in the coming years, Inuvik, Fort Smith, Yellowknife. With the baseline you have established here for Fort Simpson, is that going to be sustainable when a community like Fort Simpson with 1500 people gets almost half of what Yellowknife gets with 17,000 people? You have raised the bar here. People are going to expect nothing less than this. I cannot see how anybody would not want to say, we need all these things, ambulances, computers, we have our whole shopping list of things that we want in all our communities. You have raised the bar. Is that sustainable?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Christensen.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Christensen

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We believe, in the discussions we have had with municipalities on negotiating block funding agreements, that we have been open and candid on how we have approached them in these discussions. We have been consistent on how we have approached each of the communities in negotiating these amounts and we do not anticipate, necessarily, that the amount of the current block funding agreement will be the same as the amount of a renewed agreement. The trail of information to work within those discussions with communities are well documented. There will be an understanding with communities when we begin the negotiation of renewed agreements in which they can see the logic, rationale and consistency that we have been dealing with communities on this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Christensen. Total region, $5.817 million. Mr. Miltenberger.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister, deputy minister or Mr. Christensen indicate, if in fact the rules of engagement changed from when the first communities were at the table negotiating as rookies, block funding arrangements? It seems to me there is a significant increase. The latest and greatest out of the blocks, Fort Simpson has negotiated, it would appear as I indicated earlier, a very good deal for their community for which they are to be commended. Have the rules of engagement changed from the time when Inuvik was happy with $177,000 over the life of their capital agreement with MACA?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Christensen.