This is page numbers 6187 - 6288 of the Hansard for the 18th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was public.

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Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to try to confine my comments as much as possible to the substance of the report and the committee's experience in reviewing the bill.

Not getting into the substantive merits, flaws, or concerns around the actual piece of legislation, committee's process was, I think, an interesting one, where the steps were taken to collaborate with the sponsoring Minister on how we could find common ground on improvements to the bill, but there were some very hard lines that were established in our process. That kind of intransigence is very difficult to deal with in a system of government where the Minister is ultimately the gatekeeper of changes made to the bill.

Oftentimes, the lack of certainty and clarity were really the fundamental concerns of committee, and it took a lot of public engagement to address some of those concerns with substantive changes to the bill and the necessary improvements. I think that should be a reminder of how important public engagement is and how important public views are in shaping the legislative process in this House. We have to constantly endeavour to ensure that that takes place, because sometimes both governments and Members can miss the point of things that are important to Northerners and to our partner governments and, of course, in this case, to industry as well.

I still think that we could have had a smoother process if committee had been more engaged and involved with the drafting of the bill and had a better understanding of how that was managed. The committee will be bringing forward a more comprehensive report on this, but in the case of this bill, in particular, the co-drafting exercise, which I think is a necessary step in the evolution of governance in the Northwest Territories and establishing a very clear role for Indigenous partnership in drafting public laws, there still needs to be a role of legislative oversight and the ability of both the public and of Members of this House and appropriate standing committees to alter, change, improve, or otherwise make amendments to sections that have been previously agreed-upon at the drafting level.

I think that that needs to be a very clear part of our process that intransigence and hard lines drawn on changes to bills really have to be carefully considered. The viewpoints that are shared with the committee need to be carefully considered by government Ministers as well, because, again, they are the ultimate gatekeepers on what can be changed at the committee stage, and if the committee feels very strongly that changes need to be made and that is backed up by public viewpoints, it can be a very frustrating experience to not be allowed to make those changes, even when your convictions say that they ought to be made.

That being said, there were plenty of other areas of common ground that the committee was able to find with the sponsoring Minister and direct relationships with staff on both ends of the table, that helped make some of those compromise adjustments to the bill. It's not all bad, but certainly the largest concerns I do not think really found the cooperation necessary to address them in a timely fashion, which is one of the reasons by the clause-by-clause was a four-hour review, late into the night. I hope we can avoid this in the future, especially around pivotal pieces of legislation like the Mineral Resources Act, and I hope we can broaden our engagement at all times when we are passing laws like this, that are fundamental to our economy, fundamental to our territory, that involve as much public input and stakeholder engagement as possible.

That should be an important lesson learned for all Members of the House, but in particular governments who are bringing forward legislation: do it early; don't do it late; give time for committee to request extensions when needed to do their due diligence; and make sure that bills are ready to go forward so that we are not in a situation where we have to go back later on and make improvements after all of this process has gone by and that the public feels like there is actual opportunity for this House to change bills in a way that the public supports because that fundamentally is our role. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Further? Mr. McNeely.

Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Daniel McNeely

Daniel McNeely Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will reserve my opening comments once we get into the actual bill itself, not the report. I just want to put that on the record. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. McNeely. A bit of a teaser there from Mr. McNeely. Anything further? Mr. Vanthuyne.

Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that this committee recommends that the Government of the Northwest Territories develop the curriculum for prospector training, working with Aurora College, the Mine Training Society, and in consultation with industry experts who can offer expertise in the applied content subject matter. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. There is a motion on the floor. It is being distributed. The motion has been distributed. To the motion. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a motion where we felt that part of what the government will be undertaking is that, when prospectors or potential prospectors and explorers are applying for a prospector's licence, part of that process now will include that they take some courses that have to do with providing some degree of awareness so that prospectors and explorers can and will be informed with regard to the activities that would be taking place, and especially if they are not from around the Northwest Territories, that they receive some degree of awareness as it relates to certain sensitivities, let's say, with regard to prospecting and exploring in the Northwest Territories. So that is the intention behind this. The Mine Training Society, Aurora College, and others, and in particular industry do have a history here in the Northwest Territories of working collaboratively to put forward programs that are relevant to exploration and mining. We have seen in the past some prospector programs. We have seen a geoscience field technician-type program. We believe that this is a good motion to support. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. O'Reilly.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. While I support the motion, I think it needs to be clearly stated on the record that there were others who felt that they had expertise to offer in terms of prospector training. I think Indigenous governments, Indigenous elders, would have some perspective, some expert knowledge that they could share in terms of cultural awareness and awareness of the land rights agreements and our co-management system that mining is required to operate within. I know NGOs also expressed an interest in having an opportunity to look at whatever kind of curriculum was developed.

I note that, in Ontario, there are already online training modules that people have to walk through and pass a test, essentially. I have looked at that information myself, and I think we can and should adopt some of the ideas that Ontario already has in place. However, it's not just industry experts that I think have something to offer here. There are other parties that can and should be engaged in the development of training materials, and they have asked for that opportunity, so I am sure the Minister will ensure that they have an opportunity to get engaged in the development of this information, as well. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Further general comments on the report or, rather, sorry, we are on a motion here. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that this committee recommends that the Government of the Northwest Territories work with the NWT Association of Communities and municipal governments in the Northwest Territories to develop solutions to resolve the challenges of rights issuance that overlaps with municipal boundaries, in order to better protect municipal infrastructure and ensure public interest is protected; and further, efforts should also be directed at protection of lands and waters where critical municipal infrastructure is located or planned. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. There is a motion. The motion is on the floor and in order. To the motion. Mr. Vanthuyne.

Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that the motion sort of speaks for itself. What we discovered when we were travelling with the bill in a lot of the regional centres and in particular Yellowknife is that there is a genuine concern with regard to making sure that the public's interests are protected, especially as it relates to the critical infrastructure. A couple of good examples are things like quarries and say for example water intake lines. These are areas of interest to the city that they are concerned with when it comes to people being able to put some kind of claim or stake over these particular interests, and so, you know, we made some certain attempts to try to address this through way of various motions to this bill. Unfortunately, none of those passed, and so this is a recommendation on behalf of committee that says that the government needs to pay attention to these needs that municipal governments have as it relates to protecting the best interests of their citizens, especially as it relates to those critical pieces of infrastructure that they need to basically protect and promote the interests of their residents. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. O'Reilly.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. So, yes, committee did hear concerns around the impacts of mineral exploration and development within municipal boundaries and where this has led to some issues of land use conflicts, particularly in Inuvik. I am certainly well aware of a number of prominent cases that have been in the media around land use conflicts in Dawson around Placer Mining. Although committee tried to work with the Minister on this to try to find ways to provide notice and opportunities for temporary restrictions linked to municipal interests and purpose within communities boundaries and so on, we weren't able to make any progress because amendments required ministerial concurrence and he was not prepared to go there. So this is an attempt to try to get the Minister to address this issue and our government to address this issue on a policy basis going forward.

You know, realistically, what you would expect to happen is, once a community has identified key municipal infrastructure, like potable water, that there be a way to protect potable water sources permanently from activities that could impact potable water, source water. I think that was even some efforts that were being done by Environment and Natural Resources to protect potable source water for municipal governments. As municipalities grow and change, they may need to look at areas outside of their boundaries for sewage treatment, municipal landfills, recreational opportunities, that are even outside of their own boundaries.

We want to make sure that our communities have the ability to make sure that their investments are respected and so on. The efforts that committee was trying to go through were to try to prevent land use conflicts from happening in the first place and encouraging good neighbour relationships. TerraX has a great relationship within Yellowknife, but we wanted to find ways to try to instill that into the bill. Unfortunately, they weren't successful, so here is an attempt to try to get our government to deal with these issues on a policy basis going forward. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Testart.

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree with the intent of this motion, and this is not a hypothetical situation where there is a problem with the interaction between the challenges of rights issuances within municipal boundaries. This is a live issue. It has happened in Inuvik, and the committee was told about it in Inuvik. During the clause-by-clause, there wasn't support from the sponsoring Minister to resolve this issue the way that the committee thought would be a reasonable way to address it.

That being said, I think that there is a lot of merit to this, and the motion does more or less speak to itself, but what we have heard so far is that the concern is, when you are dealing with Indigenous governments and Indigenous organizations, that they have inherent rights that are protected by the charter and rights over lands and resources. Those rights need to be addressed in legislation and by government policy.

I don't disagree. That's really not a question; that's the reality. It is good that the legislation governs that, but when it comes to municipalities, they have the rights that we give them as a territorial government. They are creatures of statute, and if we change the statute to reflect a different role for them, especially in regards to solving this problem, it is not removing rights from someone else or an inappropriate issuance of rights. It is what we have decided is appropriate to strengthen local governance in the Northwest Territories.

Our Ministers are very, very proud of their times served in the bear pit over the years. All of our MACA Ministers talk about that, but we have to do more than just take their concerns. We actually have to address these fundamental issues of local governance when we have the opportunity to do so. I think that that is what the committee tried to do.

I already know that, most likely, the response to this motion will be that they will do the workarounds as best as possible, but sometimes these require going to court, which adds additional costs to both industry and municipalities, and when it comes to municipalities, it is taxpayers who foot that bill at the end of the day. If we can find any way to resolve that through legislation and through reasonable applications of things like restricted areas, I think that it is something that we ought to be doing.

Again, these are creatures of statute. By granting them additional powers to request things like a restricted area, it's not taking away rights from Indigenous governments, and it's not impinging on the rights of Indigenous governments. It's creating new authorities for municipalities to better exercise control over their boundaries and to preserve vital public infrastructure for public purposes.

I really hope we don't see another response like that and that we can change the government's perspective on these issues and start actually giving meaningful changes to our municipal partners. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Vanthuyne.

Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that this committee recommends that the Government of the Northwest Territories appoint an independent panel to undertake a review of the system for charging royalties to mining, petroleum, and natural gas companies operating in the Northwest Territories, and further, this review should include a comparison of the Northwest Territories system with that used in other jurisdictions and should make recommendations on system improvement while providing opportunities for public input. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Vanthuyne.