Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Is this committee agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Thank you. Madam Minister, for the record can you please introduce your witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Blair Dunbar, deputy minister and Mr. Dave Tyler, finance and administration.

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mr. Ningark.

General Comments

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I still think that not allowing the social assistance recipients to cash their social assistance cheques is insensitive and unfair to a recipient who has children to look after or has kids going to school in places such as Yellowknife or other larger centres. There are times when the parent has to buy some clothing for the kids who are attending high school in other communities, other than the recipient's home community. There are times when the recipient wants to buy other things from other stores other than the co-op or the Northern Store, we have the hunters' and trappers' association selling, in their establishment, country food and other essentials. If you are not able to cash the cheque, you are not able to buy things which are essential for your day-to-day use.

Mr. Chairman, the system we have now, which only allows the recipient to cash a very small portion of a social assistance cheque and the recipient who is already enduring a restrictive life-style is being made more restricted by this departmental policy. The honourable Minister indicated to me a few weeks ago that it was up to the Kitikmeot regional council to change the policy. If the Minister is not comfortable in making the policy stand uniformly throughout the territories, maybe she could get the social appeal committee to have a discretionary decision on who should be getting the cash and who should be getting a voucher.

My question to the Minister is, Mr. Chairman, who is in charge of the department? Is it the Minister herself or is it the regional council? Thank you.

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am in charge. The direction I took was from the Kitikmeot regional council, which consists of mayors when they meet. This is the community-based approach which has been adopted by the department. I think in my response to your question, I had asked to meet with you after the session to try and resolve this continuing problem. The last time the Kitikmeot regional council met, the motion was passed again for vouchers. I could easily override that, but my best guess is that there may be two communities in the Kitikmeot region that went against the motion which was dealt with through the Kitikmeot regional council.

Thank you. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I respect the Minister when she indicated she is in charge of the department. Is it because a few recipients who are using the money for other things other than buying groceries and basics for their family, that the other recipients who are not abusing the system have to suffer? I wonder if the Minister can weigh the balance and try to work things out, especially for the people who have large families to take care of. I wonder if the Minister would reconsider the decision that was made, on her behalf, by the Kitikmeot regional council?

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was my intention when I suggested that I would like to meet with Mr. Ningark and deal with the particular communities which he may be talking on behalf of. I do agree with Mr. Ningark. In smaller communities they know who gambles and who does not. I am still willing to meet with him after the session is over. Thank you.

General comments. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, I have some problems with regard to the existing Child Welfare Act, with adoptions. One of the problems is that we are still exercising adoption based on the existing laws with no due consideration for the immediate family, aunts, uncles or even grandparents. Have you touched on this at all? Once a child becomes a ward of Social Services, there is no consideration whatsoever with regard to the background of the child or families. Once they are within the court system, then they are protected under the law and there is nothing you can do about it. Has the Minister herself, being an aboriginal person and perhaps a mother, looked at the present act to see how you might be able to allow the immediate family the first option to care for the child in the event the mother is not suitable?

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I do know where the Member for Deh Cho is coming from. Usually, if we do have a social worker handling the adoption case, and if our workers are familiar and oriented with the aboriginal traditions in adoptions, there are usually less problems. I do agree there has to be some changes made, but I think it would be wise for our department to wait for the family law review report to be dealt with. In that report there may be some recommendations which tie in with this. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Even in the family law review report, there is nothing they can do with regard to trying to recognize the aboriginal custom adoption in legislation. The only way that is being done right now is through practice and the recognition of the courts to observe that practice and legalize it. Even before that process is addressed, the situation is that if a parent decides to give her child to the grandparents, uncles or aunts, Social Services gets involved with their laws and the criteria of whether the grandparents are suitable and whether you get consent from the natural mother or father. So, even though the courts recognize that practice, the whole confusion starts when the Department of Social Services starts scrutinizing every member of the family to see whether suitable ability exists. So, what happens is that even though a young girl consents to her mother taking care of the children, as soon as Social Services gets involved the whole custom adoption practice is stopped in its tracks. Then, the department goes through its process as if it was a private adoption. I am wondering if there is a way to change this government's legislation. I would like to see something in the legislation which gives the opportunity, if it is a court decision that under the Child Welfare Act, the grandparents or the uncles or aunts are given the first option as opposed to the child being put in a foster home, or a different home away from the community. In most cases it is not aboriginal families they are being fostered to, it is white families.

Thank you. Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I merely suggested in the family law reform report there may be recommendations which pertain to this. I would like to get clarification from the Member for Deh Cho. Is he talking about apprehended children or custom adoption?

Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, could the Minister ask the question again?

Madam Minister.