Thank you, Mr. Steen, then could I have a time frame from the Minister, when she will get back to me and inform the community of Iqaluit when and who authorized the change of our project scope to gym modifications?

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am just trying to clarify that a recreation is a gymnasium, a recreation centre is a gymnasium, where kids learn to play soccer and whatever, run around, our youth.

My ADM, Vern Christensen, just lost his mother two days ago and I will have to wait until he comes back. I would not want to bother him at this time. But I would invite the mayor of Iqaluit, the SAO, the MLA to come into my office and we will discuss this face to face. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have had many disappointments in the past during my time as a Member of the Legislature, I have been here for about seven years now. I have had more that one capital project from a community that I have lost, either being deferred or money going to another region. To those Members who have lost their projects, I say, welcome to the club.

Mr. Chairman, the community health centre in Gjoa Haven seems to be the starting point of all that is going on here. Mr. Chairman, like, you got more than I got, you know. I would like to try and put things into perspective.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that Cabinet Ministers make an important decision. I would like to give you a little history of Gjoa Haven Health Centre. During my time as a member of the Legislature for the seven years I have had meetings with the community, we have had meetings with the Minister of the Health Centre, we have had meetings with the Premier of the Eleventh Assembly, in this case Nellie Cournoyea.

We have gone to the regional council, we retain their support. We have had meetings with the Ministers, with the leaders of the community of Gjoa Haven, we have written correspondence to the appropriate Ministers. We have had a petition from the community to try and retain the health centre which has been deferred once or twice in the past.

Mr. Chairman, every conceivable means has been used to acquire the health centre for Gjoa Haven. We have lost the project three times, perhaps, four times, in the past. I think the Ministers when they make the decision, in this case about Gjoa Haven's health centre, they have had many requests from different levels of leadership within the jurisdiction. Even the health board got involved in the request.

Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that during this fiscal restraint we have to, to a degree, let the managers manage. Let them set the priorities according to the informed decision from the communities, affected communities from the leadership, from regional leadership and from the local leadership. I sympathize with members who have lost their major project with substantial amount of money, but it is not the first time it has happened. You will not be the only one who has lost you project. I have lost three projects during the past six years.

Mr. Chairman, because we are in a democracy, all twenty-four members of the Legislature are not able to make decisions on behalf of the government. We have selected, we have delegated the Cabinet members to make day to day decision on our behalf, on behalf of the public. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that given the fiscal restraint that we are faced with the Cabinet has a very difficult task before them. Given the needs demonstrated by the communities, by the region and also demonstrated by a number of communications between the Cabinet and the affected communities, I think, the Cabinet membership has made a good decision but not satisfactory to everyone.

Mr. Chairman, I agree that the current practice by the Cabinet Ministers is not acceptable, perhaps, unfair. But somebody has to make the tough decision. I remember when we first got elected into the thirteenth Assembly the Premier of this government, Nellie Cournoyea, appeared before the caucus, she told us at that time, she said I do not envy you guys. You are going to have to make the tough decisions, This is not a time to be popular, this is the time to make the right decision. I believe that, Mr. Chairman, like you, like the Members, especially those who have lost substantial amount of money to changes to the capital plan.

I am not happy with the process. From here on you should try to make recommendations to the government within our ability, within our power as ordinary M.L.A.'s. Once that has happened, then we have to look into the policies and directives of the government to determine, Mr. Chairman, if the current practice is, in fact, in line with the power that was given to us by the federal government. If it is within the scope of the power given to us by the federal government I am willing to live with that, but I think the problem is communication from the cabinet to affected M.L.A.'s about their projects.

I sympathize with each and every one of you, that the lack of communication may have played a role in what is happening now at this time. It is not a pleasant discussion, what is happening, but I think once we talk about it, determine the guidelines or recommendations, and perhaps all the animosity that is going on before us will disappear. Like I said before we have news in Gjoa Haven and Kitikmeot every conceivable means to try and acquire the nursing station, we have lost it once or twice, or three times before. I believe that the cabinet has made the right decision because we have demonstrated the need to acquire the health centre. I wish from here on that the name health centre of Gjoa Haven has come up a number of times. I am not about to sit here and listen to people talking about my community. I do not want to get personal and I hope that I have indicated to you that I put things into perspective. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

No.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will start off by making a statement regarding Mr. Ningark's comments. First of all, John, all the power to you that your community received a new health centre, that is great and I do not think that is the issue and I am sure some of your friends that live in Arviat are also very happy for you, but I am not quite sure if you would feel as, I guess, to be as complimenting as you have been to the cabinet, if you were sitting there with three-quarters of a million dollars having been jerked out of your community. Mr. Todd mentioned about changing a few toilets around. I wish it were only that simple.

The community of Arviat is one of the fast growing communities in the Eastern Arctic, maybe in the north, averaging between 80 and 100 babies a year and the issue of a new health centre has been on the burner for a number of years, to the point where three years ago the community just a piece of land that had a large commercial building on it, the building was demolished, the lot was prepared for what they thought would be for a new health centre. Once again they were disappointed, it did not happen.

Early this spring we had Mr. Ng, the Minister of Health and Social Services, in Arviat attending the Nunavut Leader Summit. At that point he toured the health centre with, I believe, and I stand to be corrected, a staff member and also the SAO. At that point it was, I will not say committed, but inferred that there would be dollars this year for the health centre. Even though it was only geared toward a retrofit, phase one.

The community was still bent on a new centre and we have some disagreement over that, but at least there was $800,000 committed in this year's capital budget toward the retrofit of the health centre, a 35 year old health centre that is probably the oldest in the Eastern Arctic. There is no surprise that the community and myself will be quite disappointed when this money was removed and again to compound this without any consultation with myself or the community. Any consultation that did take place was after the fact.

I do not think it really matters whether we are talking about $50,000 or $800,000. It is the process that is wrong, flawed, and many people have said that over the last few days and I heard the premier statements and his comments indicate that he was satisfied with some of these changes. I did not hear him indicate that he reviewed the Arviat Health Centre, where three-quarters of a million dollars was removed. That is a significant amount of money and I have some difficulty when the premier states that they have accepted the rationale for these moves. Well it certainly is not acceptable to me, as the M.L.A. of the community.

What I should do at this point is ask the Minister, Mr. Ng, if he can explain the rationale to myself and the members of my community and also considering the history considering that there was at one point a few years ago, as in Mr. Ningark's case, a new health centre promised, so if Mr. Ng would not mind providing myself and the Members here with some historical background as to the promise of a new facility, to the promise of a retrofit, to zero. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, first of all, it is a regrettable situation when you cannot meet all the needs of all the people that are out there in our constituencies, and this particular example is certainly a case that highlights that, that within the Department of Health and Social Services capital allocations, both Members are correct that have spoken on the issues of their health centres, both Gjoa Haven and the community of Arviat were scheduled originally to have new health facilities, their funding for new health facilities was later during the course of events down scaled to renovations and particularly in last year's business planning cycle, the Department of Health and Social Services undertook to change all the focus of their capital plans of new facilities to renovations, partly because of the fact that they thought they could address the needs through some renovations on a short-term basis, to address needs in communities and give them the luxury and the time of planning things out, subsequent to those projects being reprofiled as renovations, that capital plan went forward to this assembly for approval in May of this '96 year, Mr. Chairman.

During March of the year, Public Works and Services completed structural and technical assessments of both Gjoa Haven and the Arviat Health Centres. Both reports recommended the construction of new facilities, or they advised that putting dollars into renovations would only be a short-term solution and the overall cost effectiveness would not necessarily be there. Because of that fact, the Department of Health and Social Services capital budget that was approved, carried four renovation projects for health Centres, that being Fort Providence, Fort Resolution, Arviat and Gjoa Haven.

Because of the fact that the Arviat and Gjoa Haven were both recommended for new health centres, the Department, and particularly myself as the Minister, was in a dilemma, I mean I could decide to go ahead with renovations and bandaid, short-term solution to both communities, that might have gotten them by for two or three years, but that would not have addressed the long term needs of either community.

I made a decision or a recommendation to the financial management board for approval, that was subsequently approved, to focus on trying to create and establish a new facility in one of the communities, in this case Gjoa Haven, and as a result of that, of course, there had to be money taken from other health centre renovations to accommodate that, and as you see in the outline of the capital plan changes, $482,000 came out of the Fort Providence renovation, $490,000 came out of the Fort Resolution Health Centre renovation, and $728,000 came out of the Arviat Health Centre renovation and that is a total of $1.7 million dollars was reprofiled into the Gjoa Haven project as a new health centre facility, which totalled, added onto their approved renovation amount, totalled $2.3 million dollars, which is what the capital estimate was for a new health centre for that community.

The decision was a tough one, of course, Mr. O'Brien is correct, Arviat is one of the fastest growing communities in the Northwest Territories with an average growth rate of 2.5 per cent per year; however, I looked at that and I also looked at the fact that Gjoa Haven is also, if not one of the, the highest growing populations, as well, percentage-wise. Their growth rate over the past years have been about 3 per cent. There was also the factor, Mr. Chairman, that weighted the decision towards Gjoa Haven, the fact that their facility, even though they have a smaller population, they have a 503 square metre facility, and Arviat had a 670 square metre facility, but the fact remains that the Gjoa Haven facility, it had been pointed out to us by the Health Board there, that they did not have adequate program space. In other words that they did not have enough space for the nurses to operate in their current facility. Both facilities were also built around the same time, both in states of disrepair that required upgrading, of course. As I indicated earlier, both facilities had been slated for replacements at some point in time.

However, the other thing I looked at was the fact that the Gjoa Haven facility had been renovated in 1981, and also in 1987, while the Arviat health centre had been renovated in 1977, and the last one in 1990.

So those were a couple of the factors that I took into consideration in determining the tough decision of which community to build a new health centre in, Mr. Chairman.

Another issue that was taken into consideration, and Mr. O'Brien is correct. When I was in the community of Arviat, I did have a chance to tour the facility with the SAO, and with the deputy mayor at the time. They knew that there was some renovation monies there. They were talking about the possibility of block funding it, so that they could undertake the renovations themselves. But at the same time, the community was requesting a new facility. So there was some conflicting messages to me, of what exactly was the request coming from the community.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, in committee of the whole, as you know, I also raised the point of the fact that the Department of Health and Social Services was deficient in some of their capital funds. Mr. Ningark had asked for a commitment on the Gjoa Haven health centre, which I had assured him I would try to do everything I could to ensure that that project took place, to meet their needs. A delegation from the municipality of Gjoa Haven, the mayor, deputy mayor, and two or three of the councillors also were down to outline to me their need of a new health facility, this past spring as well.

I was not getting the same type of signals from the community of Arviat, or their representative. Although I am not saying that they are not there, Mr. Chairman. Unfortunately, both communities had the need. A decision had to be made. One community would benefit, and one community would not, in the short term. I still plan on addressing the needs of Arviat in the future, Mr. Chairman, provided funding could be freed up to allow that to happen. Basically, Mr. Chairman, that is what I have to comment on.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I take strong exception that Mr. Ng made in closing, that he was not getting the same signal from myself. I take it when a Minister tells me that X number of dollars are going to go into the capital budget, that they go in. I take his word that when it is approved, that it will stay there. It will be used for what it was put in there for. I did not think there was any need to jump up and down, and create a scene when this money was put in the budget. It was approved. So why should I? I accepted that the process was legitimate, and it was going to honour the commitment that was there.

The bottom line here, and we have talked about this the last few days, it is not that the money went to John's riding, all the power to him, that is great. It is the process. Judging from the comments that were made here today, I do not see this process changing in years to come, in the short time that we have left. So therefore, in order to ensure that capital dollars stay in place, for what they were intended for, we need some kind of a mechanism to make sure that they are not moved arbitrarily, without the consent or the approval of the Member.

I think it is fair to say, from the comments that we have heard today, there are not going to be any changes. We will be at the table again next year, facing the same situation. We could. I do not think there is any need to beat a dead horse. The changes have to be made. They have to be made here by the people who were elected to do so. That is all I have to say. Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Chairman. In the previous Assemblies, there has been changes to the capital plan. As far as accountability is concerned, we are accountable to the House, and accountable to the committees. Whenever we make a change, we bring that back to the committee. I have already said earlier today that that community hall or that building in Simpson anyhow, the one that MACA is doing, is that we should put that building on hold until we can put through the process, because that is a new project. Okay.

What we should also look at doing is that when there is money to be moved, and there will be money that needs to be moved. There is no doubt in my mind, that is going to have to happen. Then we should discuss a process of how a new capital project comes into the process in mid-year. I think that between whatever committee is in charge of that, and the Minister of FMB should be able to work that out. So that you can work out a process. At all times, you must understand there will be money moved from time to time. All we have to figure out, is how we do that. So that you do not tie the hands of government so tight so that there is no movement of dollars. I commit to Members that I will ask John to work with the proper committee and then we can come back into committee of the whole, and you can work out the motions it takes to take care of that issue.

Just to go back to communication. When I was a Minister of the Housing Corporation, I had a hard time convincing people that I did not walk around the territories with houses in my back pocket. They were all allocated from a needs process. The needs process is what drove the allocation. So in some cases, things happen so that one community would need three or four houses, maybe in the Eastern Arctic. And it was usually in the Eastern Arctic. They could not build all their houses. So I might borrow from Whale Cove, three or four houses. But I let the Member know. I am borrowing two or three houses from you this year, and I am lending them to Lac La Martre. Next year, you will get your three or four houses back, and Lac La Martre loses three or four houses out of their allocation. It is straightforward. It is communication. That is the Minister's job.

And I will make sure that the Ministers do that job. If money is being moved in the ridings, and if it affects any Member of this Assembly, the Ministers will communicate. That is the way you should do business. And I agree with that. So that should put that item to bed. Now, all we have to really discuss is the process of how, if, and it is very very seldom, if a new project has to come into the capital process, how do you do that. If you are not satisfied that is there now, let us change it. We have that ability. But let us do that through consultation between ordinary Members, whether it be the Ops Committee, or whoever, and the Minister of the Financial Management Board. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I agree that we cannot continue on this subject forever without coming up with some type of mechanism for dealing with the current situation, as well as the future situations. It has been suggested that Yellowknife gets block funding. I do not really understand the situation, Mr. Chairman. There are parts of my constituency that do not receive block funding. I understand fully the implications of Dettah or N'dilo's capital projects being deferred or deleted.

Mr. Chairman, I also understand that Ministers have to manage. And I also understand that we are trying to balance the budget. And that sometimes cuts have to be made. However, we have spent a lot of time and effort into the capital plan. Every year we will be doing that. I believe that what we agree on has to be fairly rigid. But it cannot be an iron-clad guarantee that nothing will move.

I am a strong believer in community empowerment. As a person working for the aboriginal community, I have fought for it for years. So I cannot agree that a community cannot change its priority, and want another project.

At the same time, as the Premier has alluded to, there should be consultation with the community, and with the MLA for that community, if projects are going to be deferred or deleted. If the community does not agree, however, I think there should be some kind of appeal process. Perhaps there could be a joint committee in Cabinet and the MLAs to decide this. We have had joint committees working on various things since we have come to office, and they work quite well.

I also liked the Premier's suggestion on how to deal with the current situation with the project that is ongoing in Fort Simpson and I agree that we also need some type of a process for new projects. I am not sure whether the other MLAs are satisfied with the rationalization for the projects that have been moved, but, certainly an objective observer, they seem reasonable. But we do need process for new projects for the future and I believe that is what we should try to focus on now rather than continuing on talking about what has already occurred and what I believe was done with full substantiation for most of the projects. Thank you.