This is page numbers 100 - 127 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was public.

Topics

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 119

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On my immediate left, Mr. Chairman, is Diane Buckland, who is our legal counsel. On my immediate right is Lew Voytilla, who is the deputy minister of FMIB. We also have with us Mr. Herb Hunt who is assisting us with negotiations with our partners in the bargaining unit. Thank you.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Before we get into general comments, I would like to remind the Members that any Member at any one time can only speak for 10 minutes to allow the Members who have not spoken to speak to the issue on the floor. After everyone has spoken, I will allow Member who have already spoken to speak. Thank you. General comments on Bill 2, An Act to Amend the Public Service Act. Mr. Enuaraq.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These proposed amendments to the Public Service Act are very significant. I am very concerned that no one has had much opportunity to study this bill or have a chance to have input. Although the Standing Committee on Government Operations did have some opportunity to review the bill, there hasn't been very much time available.

Mr. Chairman, I also know that many of my constituents are concerned about this bill and they have called or sent their concerns to me. They have asked for more time before the bill is passed. So, Mr. Chairman, I am concerned with the process. Mr. Chairman, I know we are facing very difficult financial times. I have heard the clear message from the Premier that the wages and benefits of our public servants must be looked at. I think many of my constituents understand this. However, they would like to have some opportunity to have input. Introducing a major bill on Friday and passing it the following Wednesday seems like a big rush. I wish there had been more time allowed by the government for the public input and debate. Mr. Chairman, this bill allows for the right to strike and gives the Minister significant new powers over the employees.

I sincerely hope that if this bill passes, it will not be necessary that we go through a strike or that the Minister must exercise these new powers. I believe in the collective bargaining process. As a former teacher, I was quite impressed with the concessions the NWTTA made in recent years in recognition of the government's difficult financial situation. I hope that even in the current climate of extreme concern and anxiety amongst the public servants in my constituency, the collective bargaining process can be allowed to work.

If both parties approach these negotiations in good faith and with a spirit of compromise, it should be possible to reach agreement. Even in this financially difficult time, I know there are strong concerns about this bill. I am not sure that passing it in a hurry will encourage the good faith bargaining we all wish to see occur in the near future.

For these reasons, Mr. Chairman, I have decided that I cannot support Bill 2 at this time. I will be asking for a recorded vote. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Enuaraq. General comments. Mr. Miltenberger.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since we all got elected back in October, we have been working together to come up with priorities, a direction and strategic objectives for this government, of which we are a part. So we have asked the Cabinet who we elected to do a job for us, to help put the financial house of this Government of the Northwest Territories in order. We can ascribe the blame for the deficit on previous governments if we wish, but it doesn't change the fact that we have inherited a situation and we knew we were going to do that when we ran for election.

I think it is up to this Assembly to acknowledge that we are part of this process. We have to, as part of this plan, give the tools to Cabinet to do the job. It has been very clear form the start that nobody wants to balance the budget on the backs of the poor, the disadvantaged, the homeless, the unemployed, students and single mothers. It has also been very clear by comments made in this House by many people, including the Premier, that no one group is going to be singled out. We have to share the pain.

If we don't have our financial house in order, then all our good intentions, all our programs and plans are nothing but paper and rhetoric. The key, to me and to a lot of people whose comments I have heard around this table, is that we want to maintain services to the people in the communities, the people we represent and the people who put us here and the people who are relying on us to keep the service and the government running.

I also see this legislation as a way to avoid massive lay-offs. If we had no alternative than to cut program dollars, by extension, to me, we are cutting staff. Massive lay-offs do nothing for the territory. It cripples the economy. The effect across the Territory would be catastrophic. I don't think anyone wants that.

Since I was elected, and especially since December, I have been pushing for money to be cut from all aspects of the budget. I have no problems saying this publicly because I have been saying it in my constituency. I thought $40 million out of the pay and benefits envelope of $455 million was not unreasonable. Take money from capital and take it from programs. We all have to share the pain. I want the people where I live and where they live across the North to be able to count on health services, social services, education, sewer and water; all the things that people have come to require.

Mr. Chairman, I have no problem supporting this legislation. We have been on the fast track since we were elected. We have made significant changes to how this government runs, We have changed the process. We have gone back to a consensus style of government which I think is long overdue. We have been pressed for time. That is unfortunate, but I don't think it can be avoided. We have made a reasonable attempt to get required input. I am satisfied that while it isn't perfect, it is enough of a direction and enough time for me to go forward. As I have indicated in Caucus, I will go anywhere to talk about what we are doing as a government, the decisions we make and the direction taken in Caucus.

I will be, at the end of the day when these amendments are made, supporting this bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Picco.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the government knew last summer that it was facing a severe budget shortfall. It is my opinion that the government should have begun discussions with our union and our public servants at that time, to work out common solutions to the fiscal situation. This was not done and now the 13th Assembly is put in a very difficult situation.

Mr. Chairman, the window of opportunity for the 13th Assembly to balance this budget and to get our fiscal house in order is narrowing. Mr. Chairman, I realize this and I also realize that the changes in the Public Service Act are to make this so. Bill 2, An Act to Amend the Public Service Act, being introduced before the public service bargaining units sit down to negotiate with the government sets out a dangerous precedent for the collective bargaining process in the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Chairman, the process does not allow for the input needed. I will vote against the bill, as I have stated from the beginning of this debate, because of the process. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Picco. General comments on Bill 2, An Act to Amend the Public Service Act. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make general comments on the bill. First of all, I would like to speak with respect to the 110 names I received today from my constituents opposing the passage of the bill to amend the Public Service Act. I want to assure all those people that I will be available to discuss this process that lead to the bill being brought to the House today. I will have a meeting with all concerned parties upon my return to Hay River.

The bottom line is that we have a projected deficit of $150 million. We put this bill into committee and we consulted with the union representatives. I feel that the government moved considerably on the concerns that were raised by the unions. I sat in on every meeting possible to hear both sides of that because I wanted to obtain a certain level of comfort with what was being said and what was being done. We do not want the public service to be unduly or unequally treated in the process of implementing the reductions. I want to say that there is nothing that I will expect the unions to take at the negotiating table that I, personally, as an MLA, would not be prepared to take in terms of reductions in the area of salaries and benefits.

The reductions in our budget have to come from many sources. The warning bells have been sounding for some time that this government was in difficulty financially. I would be surprised if the unions did not fully expect that there would be reductions coming. Now I believe it is time that the union and the government come to the table and negotiate collective agreements in good faith.

I would be acting irresponsibly as a representative of all my constituents if I asked this government to fairly and compassionately identify $150 million in reductions but exclude the public service. These are difficult fiscal times and difficult decisions are going to have to be made. We have no choice but to proceed with those difficult decisions. Thank you.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Steen, Mr. Erasmus, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Steen.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my first comments are in response to a comment made by the Minister of Finance with regard to the public perception of having this piece of legislation fast-tracked through the House.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out to the Minister that if he was so concerned about the bill receiving proper consultation, why did he suggest unanimous consent to put it straight into Committee of the Whole.

Mr. Chairman, I voted against unanimous consent, but it wasn't particularly that I was against the piece of legislation. I voted so that the bill would go to the committee and from there it would be up to the committee as to whether or not they felt more public consultation was needed or not. In other words, I didn't want anyone to say that this bill was fast-tracked through the House.

Mr. Chairman, I don't particularly have any concerns with the wording of the bill. My concern is more with the snowball effect these amendments to the legislation will have. It would give this government the opportunity to amend the wages and benefits of the employees. Where my concern comes in is although I don't have very many government employees in my region, we do have a lot of hamlet and housing employees and they have unions. No doubt the next thing that is going to happen is they will be requestion to reduce their wages and benefits to their employees as well. Their wages and benefits Reflect what this government has. I do have that as a concern.

I am also surprised that at this time of great restraint, the Federal government hasn't taken the same action to reduce their wages and benefits to their employees. Our wages and benefits for our employees reflect what the federal government used to have.

Mr. Chairman, because I don't particularly have any concerns with the wording of this bill and I believe the unions have had proper opportunity to have input into the bill, according to the Members of the committees, I would vote in favour of the bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I have Mr. Erasmus, Mr. Ootes and Mr. Henry. Mr. Erasmus.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

February 20th, 1996

Page 121

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When this bill was introduced, I indicated my concern about excluded positions. I had heard on the radio that perhaps 30 per cent or more of people in the bargaining unit could be excluded the way the bill had been worded. Through the Government Operations committee, we had input from the union bosses. As a result of that, we tightened up the wording of several clauses.

We have also been assured by the Minister of Finance that less than 400 people would be excluded as a result of this new legislation.

During our meetings, which were public for the most part, the union indicated that it was okay with them to take out arbitration. They indicated that that process was too slow and that the arbitrators were reluctant to make hard decisions. They also indicated that they had been trying to get the right to strike for years. They also indicated that they wanted us to change the legislation so they could strike on the same day that the government could change terms and conditions of the previous agreement. We have done that.

I would like to add that several members of my family work for the government. They, too, will be affected by this legislation. However, I would prefer that they and others have their wages and benefits cut rather than laying them off because that's the alternative: massive lay-offs. It's been a very difficult process and very difficult to make a decision upon, however, I will be voting in favour of this bill. Thank you. Reflect what this government has. I do have that as a concern.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Ootes.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've approached this issue on a very serious basis because if affects a lot of people, employees of the Government of the NWT. I can truly tell you that I've given it a lot of consideration. I was pleased that we moved into considering this bill through the Government

Operations committee where we had an opportunity to have input and I had some opportunity to have my input. At the Government Operations committee level, we had presentations by the stakeholders: Mr. Todd, the Minister of Finance; Mr. Crook of the Union of Northern Workers; and Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Lyons of the NWT Teachers' Association. They expressed their concerns about the government's bill.

I can understand the emotion associated with this situation but I feel that the government has moved substantially since we first looked at it. I'd like to speak for a moment, as well, about our financial problems here in the North. It is driving a lot of the need for us to make decisions. The bottom line is we need to shave $150 million off of our budget and all northerners will be affected; all northerners, not just our employees. We have a difficult situation on our hands here but our agenda is to solve those difficult problems. I'm not going to make the budget be solved on the backs of the workers; I'm going to make the budget be solved on the backs of everybody in this territory because that's reality.

I see the process we're going through as a solution to massive lay-offs, as some other Members have stated, and we're here to make those tough decisions. Not all of our decisions will be very popular. I know that we will hear from a lot of people, once we start discussing the budget: people who don't have jobs, the people who are on social assistance, the students, everyone, the workers in the government, we will hear it from everyone.

I hope that both parties will approach this issue in good faith and I am confident that it will result in a satisfactory solution to this issue. I will be voting in favour of this bill today. Thank you.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Henry.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If it's your pleasure, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question first and carry on with a statement.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Sorry about that, I was momentarily distracted looking at my list. Mr. Minister.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Todd Keewatin Central

What?

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

(Microphone turned off)...and proceed with my statement.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. We allow the Members to ask questions if they wish to.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Earlier on this afternoon I had asked a question of Mr. Todd, the honourable Minister of Finance, and it was ruled out of order. I feel that it's important that that question be asked again. I accept the fact that during Mr. Todd's presentation at the beginning, it was probably covered but I would specifically like to separate it because it has been brought to me by a number of my constituents and I believe it deserves clarification.

I will reread this again, if I may. This is with regard to Bill 2, An Act to Amend the Public Service Act. I understand that clause 3 revokes the articles in the three collective bargaining agreements which state that the agreements will stay in force, even after their expiry date, until new agreements are concluded. This has understandably lead to significant confusion and consternation among organized government employees. However, it is my understanding that even with the passage of this bill, the collective bargaining agreements will continue in force as long as negotiations are continuing. I would like the Minister to tell me whether this is so and clarify this issue for the benefit of all unionized government employees.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The straightforward answer is yes.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Henry, please continue.