This is page numbers 331 - 362 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was communities.

Members Present

Hon. Jim Antoine, Hon. Goo Arlooktoo, Mr. Barnabas, Hon. Charles Dent, Mr. Enuaraq, Mr. Erasmus, Mr. Evaloarjuk, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Henry, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Krutko, Mr. Miltenberger, Hon. Kelvin Ng, Mr. Ningark, Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Ootes, Mr. Picco, Mr. Rabesca, Mr. Roland, Mr. Steen, Hon. Manitok Thompson, Hon. John Todd

--- Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 331

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Arlooktoo.

Minister's Statement 50-13(3): Minister Absent From The House
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 331

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise Members that the Premier will be absent from the House today and tomorrow to attend meetings with the Prime Minister of Canada and the Honourable Stephan Dionne in Ottawa. Thank you.

Minister's Statement 50-13(3): Minister Absent From The House
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 331

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Dent.

Minister's Statement 51-13(3): Distance Learning Initiatives
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 331

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform this Assembly how my department is using information technology to improve services and how it plans to make the most of a new data communications network that will link northern communities over the next two years.

The Department of Education, Culture and Employment has been actively involved in developing the northern information highway, in partnership with educational institutions, the private sector, the federal government, aboriginal organizations and the NWT Internet community. One of the most popular initiatives is a territorial education bulletin board, which has linked most educators and many students for the past four years.

My department also established the NWT's first World Wide Web site, which has been operating for more than a year and a half. The department has helped pilot a desktop video conferencing system, which has been used by high school science classes in Pond Inlet and Kimmirut.

Through the community access program, the department has provided public access to the Internet and training in 14 communities this year.

Mr. Speaker, my department plans to build on these accomplishments. A distance learning project team is assessing projects to be started in the next year. These include:

- training programs to help educators make the best possible use of information technology;

- automated access to the catalogue for the territorial public library system;

- improved access to career planning information;

- evelopment of aboriginal language operating systems and data distribution systems; and,

- expansion of the community access program to all NWT communities.

Mr. Speaker, the new territorial data communications network will save this government money. There will be less need for staff travel, reduced printing costs and streamlined administration. But more importantly, better access to information will mean all residents of the Northwest Territories will have a chance to improve their education. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

Minister's Statement 51-13(3): Distance Learning Initiatives
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 331

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mrs. Thompson.

Minister's Statement 52-13(3): Recreation Leaders Program Graduates
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 331

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to offer my congratulations to the 12 students who, last Friday, graduated from Aurora College's recreation leaders' diploma program in Inuvik.

The department has long been a partner with Aurora College in this program since its first students started back in 1986. The program has provided northerners and our recent graduates with a unique blend of classroom education and on-the-job practicum training, both in Inuvik and their home communities. Most graduates are now returning to their communities to assume recreation leadership positions.

The graduates are Dean McLeod of Aklavik, who received the Minister's award for practicum excellence; Adam Smith and Jon Buchan of Yellowknife; Collin McPherson and Nyla Klugie of Whitehorse; David Fredlund of Rankin Inlet; Donna Sabourin of Whale Cove; Faye Doctor of Tulita; Remi Krikort of Pelly Bay; Sharon Idlout of Igloolik; Simon Kuliktana of Kugluktuk; Steve Cockney of Tuktoyaktuk.

I would also like to acknowledge and thank the community councils of each graduate for supporting the development of recreation and local leaders in their communities. Recreation leaders are important to the physical and social health of their communities and play a major role in providing activities that support their residents' well-being.

Mr. Speaker, as we continue to work together to empower communities, we hope to continue building on successes such as the recreation leaders' program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

Minister's Statement 52-13(3): Recreation Leaders Program Graduates
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 332

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mrs. Thompson. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Rabesca.

Dot Minister's Meeting With Abt
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

James Rabesca North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to thank the Honourable Jim Antoine, Minister of Transportation, for setting aside time to meet with members of ABT to discuss concerns which I raised in the House last week.

I believe the meeting today was fairly successful and it allowed ABT to express their concerns and also started the important role of opening communication between the department and community. I would also like to say there is a need to review the existing set of policies and other policies in our system to make them more accommodating to true northern companies and give them an ability to benefit from contracts.

There is a need to ensure all contracts have some form of local training component. This could possibly be used as a benchmark within the business incentive policy and other policies. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that today is the start for this review and I would like to thank the Minister of Transportation in organizing the need and assisting myself in pursuing it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Dot Minister's Meeting With Abt
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Rabesca. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Krutko.

Water Quality In Fort Mcpherson
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One thing that we may take for granted is water quality in our communities. In the case of Fort McPherson, there has been a real outcry with regard to the taste and colour of our water. At this time of year, it is a very brown colour. Year after year, there have been concerns raised, yet the department has made temporary arrangements to upgrade the facility, but it seems that the community has identified the problem as the water source and not the processing treatment that is used. You can't remove the smell of the water at this time of year. The water has high traces of chlorine due to the system used to break down the different chemicals such as magnesium and the pH balance.

Some things we take for granted, such as drinking water out of a tap. We have to look at what is more important. We have had a high number of people with cancer in the community. People in the past have stated that it is because of the chlorine that is used in the water system. There may be a connection because of the large amounts of chlorine to bring the water up to a certain standard. We may have to look at the whole health issue.

With that, I will be asking the Minister an appropriate question on that matter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Water Quality In Fort Mcpherson
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Evaloarjuk.

Giving Thanks To People Of Arviat And Nwtpc
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

Mark Evaloarjuk Amittuq

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to offer my thanks to the people of Arviat. They welcomed us with open arms. They were very kind to us and they organized the meeting very well. I would also like to thank the MLA from Arviat. He made the arrangements properly. As well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for the NWT Power Corporation. The oil spill in Igloolik has been fixed and we were well informed of the occurrences that were happening. Although this was an emergency situation, they fixed it up very well. Thank you.

Giving Thanks To People Of Arviat And Nwtpc
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Qujannamiik. I would like to remind that Members' statements are for Members to make a statement based on only one item. Item 3, Members' statements. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Name For New Western Territory
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 332

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we all know, on April 1, 1999, the Northwest Territories will be divided into two new territories. The new eastern territory will be called Nunavut, however there hasn't been a decision on the name for the new Western Territory. As a suggestion of the other western groups involved in constitutional work, a subcommittee of the Western Caucus has been given the responsibility of finding out what western residents want our territory to be called. Four weeks ago, we started the process by inviting the residents of the Western Arctic to help name the new Western Territory. Schools, band councils, Metis locals and municipal offices throughout the Western Arctic received information packages with details of how to submit a suggestion. There were also advertisements in local papers. We want to hear from you. If you think the new territory should have a new name, let us know what name would capture the heart and soul of the people and the land we live in. If you think Northwest Territories is just right, then let us know that, too.

So far, over 300 people have let us know what they think the name should be and why. Of those, 95 per cent have suggested keeping the name "Northwest Territories''

--- Applause

Whether you want to keep the name "Northwest Territories" or want something new, we need to hear from you. The only way we can know what people think is if you call us, write us or send us a message on the information highway. Make sure your voice is heard.

On behalf of the Subcommittee on Naming the Western Territory, I encourage everyone to let us know what you think. Talk to your friends and family and think about who we are. You have until the end of July to get your suggestions in to us, and we look forward to hearing from you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Name For New Western Territory
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Barnabas.

Arctic Bay Students' Trip To Ottawa
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

Levi Barnabas High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in April, the social studies 33 class from Arctic Bay travelled to Ottawa. During the field trip ... (Translation ends)

... they went to Trent University in Peterborough to find out about the native studies program there. They met with their MP, Jack Anawak, Pauktuutit and met the Arctic Ambassador for Canada, Ms. Mary Simon. In order to take this trip, the students raised the sizable sum of $3,500 through bake sales, raffles and part-time jobs. They worked hard for this trip. They also reached out to businesses from Ottawa and. in particular, the Rotary Club in Nepean, Ontario.

I rise today to give tribute to this outstanding class of students. They will be the first grade 12 class to graduate from the new community high school in Arctic Bay. This trip was a big help to the students because it was very helpful in preparing them for the next step in their education, which could require them to go to school in southern Canada.

I would like to pay tribute to the students and their teacher, Mr. Blake Seward and, in particular, to thank First Air and Ms. Sonja Maviglia for the generous contribution First Air made to make this trip possible through discount fares.

Congratulations to the school, the students and their teacher. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Arctic Bay Students' Trip To Ottawa
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Barnabas. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Enuaraq.

Extending Thanks To Residents Of Arviat
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On one item...And, Mr. Speaker, I will not be asking for unanimous consent for my statement.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to offer my thanks to the people of Arviat for their assistance when the Nunavut Leaders' Summit had their meeting there. First of all, I would like to thank Kevin O'Brien, the MLA for Kivalliq. He was very welcoming to us all. Also, the Arviat mayor, David Alagalak, was very kind to us. Also, other people who organized the meeting prior to our arrival and

who worked very hard, I would like to thank as well. Also, my friend, Inoluk, I would like to thank him, as well. The people who entertained, Simon Sejjirak, Emiel and the Arviat band; I would like to thank them as well. The population of Arviat came to the community hall and helped us out. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Extending Thanks To Residents Of Arviat
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Qujannamiik. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Roland.

Graduation At Aurora Campus
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. During the past weekend, I was home in my community of Inuvik and, at that time, I attended the graduation ceremony at the Aurora Campus of Aurora College. At that time, there were 95 students graduating. It was good to be part of the ceremonies and to see so many people taking advantage of our education system and bettering themselves and moving ahead to prepare themselves for a productive future.

I would like to say to all the graduates who went through the different programs they took part in, that I wish them the best in their future. Hopefully, the changes we're making will help increase the opportunities they have to be gainfully employed. Thank you.

--- Applause

Graduation At Aurora Campus
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Miltenberger.

Community Empowerment
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 333

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make some brief comments about community empowerment. Last week when I was in my community, I had some meetings with the community leadership. While we talked about budgets and reductions, we also talked about some of the changes that the Premier talked about and when he tabled his Agenda for Change in the Assembly.

What is perceived as a keystone to that Agenda for Change is the government's position on community empowerment and what that means. There is a major interest in Fort Smith of the community groups, the band, the Metis Nation and the town council to sit down and start talking about how we implement that and what it means. They asked me for something in writing. They asked me what is the plan. We have a general blueprint as tabled in the House, but we don't have the other particulars that we need to start moving forward.

It is critical for us, as MLAs, to be able to go to our communities with something specific. In Fort Smith, we would like to plan for a major meeting in early fall to discuss the whole issue of community empowerment, and we would like to be able to sit down with the Ministers involved to do that. I just want to encourage the government to put that paper on the table. I know we're going to be looking at papers from the Minister of Health and Social Services on community wellness; through Justice, community justice. All these issues are very intricately related and it's critical that we have something that we can go to the communities with that they can read, that they can see and touch.

We are waiting in Fort Smith. There is great potential for this, and I look forward to the government's papers and positions on this. Thank you.

Community Empowerment
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 334

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Erasmus.

Effects Of Fas/fae
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 334

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to make a statement concerning a very grave problems that we face in the Northwest Territories. This problem I speak of is fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effect. There have been comments made that 40 to 60 per cent of the children in some of the schools are suffering from these effects. This problem occurs when women drink during their pregnancy and it affects the formation of the organs of the foetus. Also, when the father of a child drinks prior to making love, that can also affect the child. It's not only on the mother's part. It can affect fertility and miscarriage.

Some of the effects, Mr. Speaker, of fetal alcohol syndrome is that the children are born smaller, they are lower in weight, they get sick easily, they take longer to get better. Normally, an FAS child only matures to a grade 4 level and they usually do not become independent as adults. It also affects the nervous system. They can be colicky and fussy as a baby, they can be hyperactive as a toddler, they may have learning disabilities. It also affects facial features and causes birth defects such as heart defects, kidney problems, liver problems and smaller brain size.

It has been estimated that FAS costs approximately $100 million from birth to the age of 18, with extra education, health and everything else.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Effects Of Fas/fae
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 334

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Continue, Mr. Erasmus.

Effects Of Fas/fae
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 334

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This study that I was just talking about indicated that, in 1990, the economic cost of FAS to the United States totalled more than $2 billion in US dollars. If Canadian numbers are 10 per cent of the United States numbers, that implies the 1990 cost to the Canadian economy was over $250 million.

Mr. Speaker, I urge this government to come up with a comprehensive program to deal with fetal alcohol system and fetal alcohol effects. This would include education in schools, the warning labels on liquor bottles, posters in bars, working with the women's organizations and health organizations to implement such a program, and any other factors that people can think of that would help. Thank you.

--- Applause

Effects Of Fas/fae
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 334

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Item 3, Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Arlooktoo.

Further Return To Question 133-13(3): Public Input On Business Incentive Policy
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 334

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Erasmus on May 2, 1996, regarding public input on the business incentive policy.

Over the past three years, there have been two rounds of public consultation on the proposed business incentive policy. Meetings were held in 17 communities in all the regions. The concerns and issues raised at those meetings will be taken into consideration when Cabinet reviews the proposed policy. Unless major changes are made to the proposal, I do not see a need at this time to hold further public meetings or sessions on this issue. However, we remain open to receiving input from interested groups or individuals. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 133-13(3): Public Input On Business Incentive Policy
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 334

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Questions 147-13(3): Guidelines For Use Of Social AssistanceReturn To Question 152-13(3): Information Provided To Retailers On Social Assistance Provisions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 334

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Steen on May 3, 1996, regarding information provided to retailers on social assistance provisions.

Mr. Speaker, income support workers assess the needs of all clients asking for support. They calculate what they are entitled to receive through the income support program and give them a written assessment, including the amount of money provided for rent, food, clothing and utilities.

Income support workers provide cheques directly to about 40 per cent of people receiving assistance. They also provide cheques to local suppliers, such as grocery stores, landlords and utility companies, on behalf of about 60 per cent of income support clients.

We do not have a policy saying exactly what groceries people should buy with their support cheques; nor do we tell grocery stores what they can sell to income support clients. Health and Social Services has information and staff in communities promoting good nutrition. Also, where the income support worker thinks it is necessary, he or she may ask the community health representative, or a homemaker, to advise individuals receiving support about nutrition and budgeting, and to help individuals shop for their groceries.

Hand-outs on nutrition and NWT food guides are available in community health centres. We will now ensure that income support workers provide some of these basic information hand-outs on nutrition to clients receiving support. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Questions 147-13(3): Guidelines For Use Of Social AssistanceReturn To Question 152-13(3): Information Provided To Retailers On Social Assistance Provisions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 335

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Ng.

Return To Question 99-13(3): Evaluation Of Child Welfare Information Systems In H&ss
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 335

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two returns. One return to an oral question asked by Mr. Miltenberger on March 28, 1996, with respect to evaluation of child welfare information systems in Health and Social Services.

Since the departments of Health and Social Services were consolidated, there has been an ongoing review of information needs and the systems needed to meet management requirements. As expected, there is a need to integrate and upgrade or, in the case of child welfare, replace the existing information system.

Work has already been initiated on the redesign of the department's management information function and systems, and is scheduled to be completed by the end of the fiscal year. A new and comprehensive child welfare system that meets all legislative and management requirements is included in the redesign program and will also be fully implemented by the end of the year.

Return To Question 148-13(3): Inquiry Into Electronic Monitoring Program For Nwt Offenders
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 335

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Mr. Speaker, a second return to an oral question asked by Mr. Erasmus on May 3, 1996, with respect to the inquiry into the electronic monitoring program for NWT offenders.

Research by corrections staff on the possible use of electronic monitoring in the NWT has been ongoing since 1991.

Information about new projects in other jurisdictions was circulated to the heads of corrections meeting in October 1995. Two different articles were taken from the Internet dated March 7, 1996.

The most recent cross-Canada survey to determine how many jurisdictions use electronic monitoring was completed by RCMP officers working in aboriginal policing. This was shared with NWT corrections staff on March 29, 1996. Corrections staff discussed the issue with NorthwesTel in early April 1996, in order to determine if electronic monitoring was technically feasible.

The correctional services division in the Department of Justice in Alberta and the Department of Justice in the Yukon were also contacted at that time to discuss their progress in implementing this technology. Reports were received from Alberta and a status report was given over the phone from the Yukon. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 148-13(3): Inquiry Into Electronic Monitoring Program For Nwt Offenders
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions
Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 335

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Ng. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Ootes.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 335

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome to the gallery a neighbour and friend of mine. He is a prominent well-known lawyer in Yellowknife. Did he leave? I will introduce him anyway; Mr. Adrian Wright.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 335

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Krutko.

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 335

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At this time, I would like to recognize the press who have been sitting here and taking in what has been happening over the last few weeks. Thank you.

--- Applause

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery
Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 335

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Evaloarjuk.

Question 210-13(3): Delay In Mail Delivery To Eastern Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 335

Mark Evaloarjuk Amittuq

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Deputy Premier with regard to the mail that goes into our communities. It takes a long time in order to reach the communities. For instance, there are about six flights that go back east. Even from Ottawa to Montreal, they have regular flights every day back east. There is a direct flight from Iqaluit to Igloolik, Hall Beach and Pond Inlet. It takes a long time for the mail to arrive at those communities, even if they are just coming from Iqaluit. The mail takes a long time to reach the communities from Iqaluit. Can the Deputy Premier find out why it takes so long for the mail to reach the communities? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Question 210-13(3): Delay In Mail Delivery To Eastern Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 335

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Evaloarjuk. Deputy Premier.

Return To Question 210-13(3): Delay In Mail Delivery To Eastern Communities
Question 210-13(3): Delay In Mail Delivery To Eastern Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 335

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

(Translation) Even though we don't have any control over Canada Post, we communicate regularly with Canada Post. I will relay that question to them and then inform the Member. Thank you.

Return To Question 210-13(3): Delay In Mail Delivery To Eastern Communities
Question 210-13(3): Delay In Mail Delivery To Eastern Communities
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 335

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

(Translation) Thank you. (Translation ends) Mr. Krutko.

Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 335

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs or Public works and Services, whoever can help me with the issue of the water treatment plant in Fort McPherson, which I made note of in my opening statement. Over the years, there has been a real concern. This past spring has probably been the worst. The water smells and has heavy traces of chlorine. People have been complaining to the Health department, the

hamlet office and myself asking if anything is going to be done.

The mayor of Fort McPherson has written to Goo Arlooktoo with regard to the possibility of finding an alternative well, or lake. Their main concern is because the lake that is presently being used has become a dead lake. That is where they are tracing the water to. In a report I received yesterday from Ken Lovely, it clearly states that one prominent concern, which is still outstanding, is that ... (inaudible) ... which is a by-product between chlorine and certain dissolved organisms in the water system. THM is a source of carcinogens, which is a cancer-causing component. That is what is in this report.

My concern is, if this is a cancer-causing component in the water treatment process, what effect is it having on the population of Fort McPherson. The solution is to try to pour as much chlorine into the system to get rid of this cancer causing component. It doesn't seem to be working. My question to the Minister is, will he make this a priority item for his department and find the resources needed to look at a new water source and resolve this problem which I now see as a health issue and not just a public issue.

Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Deputy Premier.

Return To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of the situation. I did give information to the Member this morning, which was the report he talks about. In this report, it states that the water quality is an annual problem. It talks about a temporary problem on an annual basis. I am informed that the water quality is treated and it does conform to the Canadian drinking water guidelines. However, there are complaints about odour and discolouration. As for further work that the Member asks about, I am informed that the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs has allocated $40,000 to review the functions and operations of the existing water supply for next year. The intent there is to find and recommend a more stable year round water source. So we are working on it.

Return To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't see $40,000 as much of a solution to a major problem, especially when we are talking about cancer-causing components which are being traced to the water treatment process. My view is it has to be a larger-scale project than just the $40,000 Band-Aid solution, which we are going to have to deal with next year. Will the Minister allocate reasonable amounts of revenue and also work along with the community as soon as possible to try to find an alternative source of water to deal with this concern at this time?

Supplementary To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Deputy Premier, Mr. Arlooktoo.

Further Return To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker,* I understand the concern. It is a priority for me and for the department, which is why the government has set aside $40,000 to begin the process of finding a better way to deal with the problem. I am not prepared to commit anything else at this time. We are currently looking into this matter and we will keep the Member informed.

Further Return To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister make adequate resources available to deal with this problem? I don't think $40,000 is adequate; $40,000 is probably what it costs you to fly your consultants in from Edmonton to give you a report that says it will happen again next year and you can fly us back in again. It costs more than $40,000 to review this problem. Will the Minister make adequate resources available to resolve this problem which is more than $40,000?

Supplementary To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Deputy Premier, Mr. Arlooktoo.

Further Return To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs is looking into cost effective options to provide a more stable, year-round water source. Once that department has completed this review and identified ways of dealing with it, then the Department of Public Works will go out and do it. The question of finding resources is, there is no money there. There is no money.

Further Return To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I think I would like to ask the Minister when will he be able to find adequate resources to deal with this problem if you do not have the money now. Clearly, in this report it says there are cancer-causing components in the water system. You are telling me you don't have the resources, but we have a report here which says there are cancer-causing components. When will we be able to find the resources to deal with it?

Supplementary To Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Deputy Premier.

Further Return To Question 211-1313): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 336

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, the review is not yet complete. I share the concerns of the Member. Once the review is completed, I will, along with input and consultation

with the Member and the community, review the situation and go through the appropriate process.

Further Return To Question 211-1313): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Question 211-13(3): Quality Of Drinking Water In Fort Mcpherson
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Picco.

Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, recently the WWF -- not the World Wrestling Federation -- the World Wildlife Fund, gave the NWT a D grade because the GNWT seems to be stalled in its goal of establishing a network of protected areas by the year 2000. Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Renewable Resources is what are we doing to establish protected areas. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Minister of Renewable Resources, Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the month of November, I met with Monte Hummel of the World Wildlife Fund, at which time I offered to work cooperatively with his organization to identify areas of mutual concern with regard to areas that should be protected. We agreed that first we have to identify those areas together and then develop a strategy on how to gain some form of protection for these areas, whether it is done through federal parks or territorial parks. We agreed that for the most part, it would largely be the prerogative of the federal government to identify such areas. We suggested that territorial parks are much smaller in scale than national parks. They are intended to be user-friendly for tourists and local people to use. The World Wildlife Fund was more interested in identifying areas that were ecologically sensitive and that were inhabited by a certain wildlife species that needed protection. Aside from that, we have nothing to suggest except that, for the second year in a row, we have received a failing mark from this prestigious international organization. Thank you.

Return To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Picco.

Supplementary To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know the Minister is quite responsible in trying to have this strategy put in place. My question would be when does the Minister think the NWT's strategy for identifying said protected areas will be in place. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, as the Member knows, we have had a tremendous amount of work to do since we were all elected. I believe that in the month of June, things might slow down a little, enough to allow some

of us to begin some work on some new initiatives that need our attention. We can engage in an activity to identify areas with groups like the World Wildlife Fund, but at the end of the day, we also need to know who is going to pay and where the money is going to come from. I am interested in going through the exercises, as I am sure the World Wildlife Fund is, in identifying areas where we should show some concern for the ecology and the wildlife within those areas to be identified.

We also have to keep in mind that we aren't designing something that is way beyond our reach financially and that we can only wish we could do all the things that we set out to do. As long as the World Wildlife Fund is aware of that, we will have a very good working relationship. I know there is an organization that has access to a great deal of money internationally and I would be interested to see how much money they would put into ventures like that themselves. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Supplementary, Mr. Picco.

Supplementary To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the D grade I mentioned before was because of the slowness in putting the program and strategy in place that this government had, in the past, said they would do. The Minister has mentioned the costs involved. Over the past 12 to 18 months, what costs has the government identified to actually put the strategy in place, so in the eyes of the international community, the GNWT doesn't have such a black eye on environmental issues? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 337

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, there are almost no protected areas in the continent of Europe because it is almost all polluted, irrigated, farmed or has been completely decimated from many species of wildlife. Here in North America, we do suffer from the unusual high expectations of organizations such as the World Wildlife Fund. We are still a remote, sparsely-populated, relatively clean, pristine environment and, with diligence, we can continue to keep the environment in that relative state with good management. However, in order to give good report cards themselves, organizations such as the World Wildlife Fund have to continue passing report cards on people like ourselves. I don't think it is deserved or necessarily productive, but it does keep their sponsors coughing up the pay cheques and the money to keep organizations like that alive. I say that to put things in proper context.

The Government of the Northwest Territories knows there are fewer than 60,000 people here in the Northwest Territories. We are one-third the land mass in Canada, with 1.5 million square miles of area. The whole place, as far as I'm concerned, is still a protected area. However, we are interested in engaging, as I've indicated to Mr. Monte Hummel, in any exercise that would ease the fears of people down south, that our wildlife and ecology is not going to be run over by industry overnight and, perhaps, we could demonstrate some ways that we are concerned about the wildlife.

As has been indicated by the Finance Minister, 75 per cent of our money is an outright grant from the Government of Canada. We are short by 3,000 houses in the Northwest Territories, we have severe social and economic problems right now that deserve the bulk of our financial resources. Any suggestion that we would be willing to spend millions of dollars designating certain areas and then protecting them simply to get a possible improvement in our report card from the World Wildlife Fund would be unrealistic, I believe. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Question 212-13(3): Establishment Of Protected Areas In Nwt
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Erasmus.

Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Services, I think. My question is in relation to the statement I made earlier about fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effect. I would like to know if it is a policy of this government to have posters warning of the effects of women drinking while they're pregnant; if it's a policy to have these types of posters in the bars in the Northwest Territories.

Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Antoine. Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Ng.

Return To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if it's a policy of this government, but I'll check into that matter and advise the Member. Thank you.

Return To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus.

Supplementary To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

If it is not a policy, would the Minister commit to initiating such a policy?

Supplementary To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Ng.

Further Return To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will commit to taking a look at the initiative, in conjunction with the early intervention work that is being undertaken through the social envelope along with our partners -- Health and Social Services -- who are working in conjunction with Education, Culture and Employment in early intervention to try to develop a strategy for dealing with these types of

serious situations where the health concerns of our residents are affected. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Ng. Second supplementary, Mr. Erasmus.

Supplementary To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister commit to work with NWT women's and health groups to develop and implement a comprehensive program to combat fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effects?

Supplementary To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Ng.

Further Return To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we would be willing to work with any organizations that are concerned with this issue, just as we are. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Question 213-13(3): Policy For Warning Of Effects Of Drinking While Pregnant
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Steen.

Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today I received a reply to my question asked on May 3rd to the Honourable Mr. Dent with regard to grocery stores advising the social assistance clients what they can purchase with income support funds. Mr. Speaker, since at least September, there has been a sign in the Hudson Bay store in Tuktoyaktuk that states to social assistance clients that they cannot purchase tobacco products or fast foods with social assistance funds. Mr. Speaker, that is basically why I questioned the Minister in the past on this situation. I wonder if the Minister would now request that the Hudson Bay take that sign down if, in fact, it doesn't apply. Thank you.

Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Health and Social Services, Mr. Dent.

Return To Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing By Social Assistance Recipients
Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will look into the situation that the Member has outlined and take what action is appropriate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing By Social Assistance Recipients
Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Item 6, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Steen.

Supplementary To Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing By Social Assistance Recipients
Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 338

Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, this situation has been causing some amount of embarrassment to some clients. I wonder

if the Minister would see that it is appropriate to fax the request to the Hudson Bay. Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing By Social Assistance Recipients
Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Further Return To Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing By Social Assistance Recipients
Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will ensure that departmental staff look into the situation in the region immediately. As I said, we'll take appropriate action as soon as possible. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing By Social Assistance Recipients
Question 214-13(3): Restrictions On Purchasing B Social Assistance Recipients
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Ootes.

Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for FMBS. Many of our students are returning and have returned from colleges and universities and are looking for work. This year, there is even more anxiety to get employment because of the scarcity of jobs around and because tuition fees are rising at all institutions across Canada. A while ago, the federal Minister of Finance, Paul Martin, addressed this problem in the federal Budget Address, and said his government was going to make a concerted effort to hire more students this summer. Last summer, some students employed by the GNWT were paid hourly rates as high as $22, which is much more than regular employees in the private sector get for equivalent work. I wonder if the Minister could explain to me why doesn't the GNWT have a basic student rate; one that is a reasonable hourly rate, so we can increase our summer employment of students.

Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact, during our recent negotiations with the union, that was the position the government took; that, perhaps, we should be looking at a student rate that was lower than the current arrangements under the collective agreement. We believe if we lowered that rate we could, in fact, hire more students. Unfortunately, we were unable to reach an arrangement on that. Hence, whatever in the collective agreement currently exists, with the rates of pay that are there, stays in place; there will be no change and there is no specific student category for summer employment. Thank you.

Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Ootes.

Supplementary To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

I wonder if the Minister could tell us if we could institute a student summer employment wage outside of the collective agreement now, then hold discussions with the union to resolve this situation in the future.

Supplementary To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Finance, Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

John Todd Keewatin Central

My understanding is that the current collective agreement and the arrangement that was reached - or not reached, depending on how you interpret it -- will be going out to the membership for ratification soon. It will take somewhere between four to six weeks for us to receive from the union their position; whether it's yes or no to the agreement.

I, frankly, don't think we can step outside of the agreement and look for a special student rate at this time, but I will look into it and report back to my honourable colleague. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Second

supplementary, Mr. Ootes.

Supplementary To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

I think the Minister, in all likelihood -- and he said, as well -- would agree we could hire more students if we set a standard rate across the board. I think that's extremely important for us to increase the employment of our summer students. I wonder if the Minister could tell us if he will look at that immediately, because otherwise we'll lose the effect for this summer.

Supplementary To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Finance, Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will certainly discuss this with my department. But to be fair and to be frank, I don't think there's much we can do until such time as the collective agreement is ratified. But I will certainly look into it and see if there's something we can do for this summer. It's certainly the intent of this government to try to maximize as many aboriginal and non-aboriginal northern students as possible in recruitment this year. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Final supplementary, Mr. Ootes.

Supplementary To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In Yellowknife, there are approximately 250 students from the North looking for work, and more are coming every day. Then, there are many others who have come to Yellowknife from the South. So I'm wondering if the Minister could find out for me how many jobs there are for students this year in the Government of the Northwest Territories.

Supplementary To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 339

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't have those numbers at my fingertips, but I would be only too happy to provide that information to my honourable colleague in this House. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Question 215-13(3): Rates Of Pay For Student Summer Employment
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Miltenberger.

Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Minister responsible for the Business Credit Corporation. Would the Minister seriously consider the possibility of using private collection agencies, that might result in a higher net return to the BCC on delinquent loans? Thank you.

Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Economic Development, Mr. Kakfwi.

Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, as I understand the Business Credit Corporation, it is seen and sees itself as a lender of last resort; that is, they are often in the business of lending money to economic and business initiatives that are primarily seen as initiatives to create jobs. The government had set up this institution to go where banks would dread to go. So I'm not certain about the light in which the board of directors and this government sees collecting money; that is, I'm not certain about the priority that it gives to collecting money. From the first instance, they see themselves as lenders of last resort in high-risk areas where the chances of recouping losses are not good, by any banker's standards. So I would answer the question by saying that we could review it because it is a question that should be given some care in drafting the answer to. I would say I would have to review the goals and objectives of the government in setting up such an institution and the relative importance of collecting the high-risk money that is loaned by the institution. Thank you.

Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr.

Miltenberger.

Supplementary To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We recently wrote off almost $500,000 in loans. I would say, in these tight fiscal times, that when a loan is made as a loan, the assumption in my mind is that we expect it to be repaid. If it's throw-away money or grant money, maybe we should call it that. I would be very interested in working with the Minister, through the appropriate process, to look at this matter. My question to the Minister would be in this regard: when you say you would be prepared to review that, would that be part of the upcoming possible business plan review

some time in June or this summer when we could look at that? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I believe that all Members of this Legislature are interested in becoming more familiar with the Business Credit Corporation and the NWT Development Corporation, just as I am as a new Minister. I believe that all of us have to be familiar with the nature of the businesses that are conducted by these corporations. It seems to me it's a very fair question and good request to say, for instance that the Business Credit Corporation should tell us, in their view, what is the percentage of risk that they see in the business that they're in, in comparison to, let's say, the Bank of Commerce. We know that banks want almost a 100 per cent guarantee that whatever money they lend out is secured in assets or through a guaranteed return. We know that the Business Credit Corporation and the NWT Development Corporation are targeting just below that somewhere; perhaps, way below that. I'm not sure what it is, but I believe we should ask that question and I would be prepared to do that and share that with Members as soon as I get a response to that. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Miltenberger.

Supplementary To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the loans process, my understanding is the board of directors, which is directly involved in loan approvals, is a board of political appointees who are involved in direct loan approval. I have a real concern with that current set up. It is very prone to political interference and tampering, of which there could be abuses. I am speaking of my own knowledge of the business community in my neck of the woods, where there is possible movement of information that there shouldn't be. I even heard of an MLA requesting final approval of all loans in their community because they wanted to have that kind of influence. Would the Minister consider making the approval process more objective by removing the board from direct approval of loans?

Supplementary To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 340

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the board, as I understand it, and the corporation is set up to make loans; to invest in business initiatives that are considered high risk and basically out of range of consideration by banks. If there is difficulty with the board conducting business within the parameters of the legislation, then we should have a concern. If there is concern that the board is biased or unable to conduct itself because of considerations that are brought to the attention of myself, as the Minister, then the easiest thing would be to address the deficiency of the board

members themselves and to remove any suggestion that board members, collectively or individually, are unable to do good service to the public as they were appointed to do. That would be my own suggestion. If there are good suggestions as to why the board cannot continue to carry out the function of being a lender of money, then if that is preventing you ... (inaudible) ... perhaps the whole institution would have to be reviewed. That isn't a consideration at this time. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Final supplementary, Mr. Miltenberger.

Supplementary To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The role of the Business Credit Corporation is not an issue so much as the process. The question would be, is it appropriate for a board to get involved at that level; handing out loans as opposed to setting out policy and direction. Would the Minister consent to reviewing that along with the role of the collection agencies that you committed to earlier in terms of the review?

Supplementary To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Further Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, the Business Credit Corporation and the NWT Development Corporation are appointed by myself, as the Minister. I believe it is on the advice of Cabinet and with their support. So there is political accountability. If there is reason to remove a board or change members of a board because we lack confidence in some or all of them, then that is the prerogative of this government to do. We would be interested in knowing if there is reason to do any of what I have suggested. If there are grounds to do it, that is my prerogative.

I am hoping that what we do in the course of our work together over the next year is to establish a very clear working relationship with the Business Credit Corporation and a better system of accountability and to do exactly the same with the NWT Development Corporation. I am very interested in doing things that would have a positive effect and would increase the credibility and profile of these two corporations. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Question 216-13(3): Utilization Of Collection Agencies By GNWT
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. O'Brien.

Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Kevin O'Brien Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Housing. Could the Minister inform this House whether or not the NWT Housing Corporation is committed to community consultations at the district level in the coming year, so that communities can meet together to discuss the impact of the rent scale and other pressing housing issues facing the Housing Corporation in the North?

Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Housing, Mr. Arlooktoo.

Return To Question 217-13(3): 217-13(3): Committee Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, yes, the Housing Corporation is committed to these district consultation meetings. They will be occurring throughout the Northwest Territories over the next two months, including one for the Keewatin region in the Member's home community.

Return To Question 217-13(3): 217-13(3): Committee Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. O'Brien.

Supplementary To Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Kevin O'Brien Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister advise this House whether or not the representatives will be funded to travel to the communities? Thank you.

Supplementary To Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Housing, Mr. Arlooktoo.

Further Return To Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, yes, the representatives from the communities will include chairpersons from the local housing authorities and there will be assistance available for travel.

Further Return To Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Question 217-13(3): Commitment Of Nwthc To Hold District Consultation Meetings
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Roland.

Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday we heard the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs make a statement on land reform initiatives. I have a number of questions for the Minister on this issue.

Mr. Speaker, who will be making the decisions about land pricing at the community level?

Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mrs. Thompson.

Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 341

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, where land is owned by the community government, decisions about land pricing will be made by the community governments. This will be the case in Nunavut and will be the case for the next year or two in the Inuvik region where land ownership is devolved to community governments. On Commissioner's land, the GNWT will be working with community governments to determine the best strategies for recovering land development costs. Until land is transferred to community governments, the GNWT will make decisions on pricing Commissioner's land. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to know from the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs what effect land reform would have on a land claims process in the western NWT.

Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mrs. Thompson.

Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I ask the Member to clarify his question?

Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Would the Member please clarify the question?

Supplementary To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to know what effect land reform will have on the land claims process in the western NWT.

Further Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Communities in the East and West have been very clear about their desire to strengthen their authority and responsibility and this government is committed to ensuring that we move forward to ensure that these opportunities are provided. In the East, due to land claim agreements, communities have full control of land within their boundaries. In the West, where claims are settled, the same opportunities for devolution of land authority and responsibility for land development pricing are available. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Question 218-13(3): Responsibility For Land Pricing At Community Level
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Erasmus.

Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Justice. Earlier, the Minister replied to a question I had asked on May 3rd concerning an electronic monitoring program for NWT offenders. The Minister referred to several discussions and reports in his answer to my question. Does the Minister have these reports or access to them and does he have the results of the various discussions he referred to?

Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Justice, Mr. Ng.

Return To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I don't have them on me, but I will make that information available to the Member if he wishes. Thank you.

Return To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus.

Supplementary To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Can I get an indication of when I can get this information?

Supplementary To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Ng.

Further Return To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As soon as possible.

Further Return To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Erasmus.

Supplementary To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will that include summaries of the discussions that were made between staff and NorthwesTel; staff and the Department of Justice in Alberta and Department of Justice in Yukon?

Supplementary To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Ng.

Further Return To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I will speak to the staff who undertook those discussions and get a summary provided to the honourable Member. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Question 219-13(3): Reports On Electronic Monitoring Program
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Mr. Krutko.

Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs. This is with regard to the process of land reform. What is the department doing to ensure communities from the East and the West are not treated differently?

Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mrs. Thompson.

Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I put a document out called: "Finding the Right Balance." This will be going to the communities, so they can discuss the options they have. We are consulting with the communities. This is the document I have given to this House. Thank you.

Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 342

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to know why the government is presently charging aboriginal people for their land with regard to IAB lands in communities.

Supplementary To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mrs. Thompson.

Further Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The land reform initiative is about recovering capital costs spent by the GNWT. Community governments are providing improvements to the land to create developed lots. Pricing is not for land, but capital improvements. These capital costs include planning and engineering design, road construction, land fill, legal surveys, power lines and pipes, water and sewer lines. This government can no longer subsidize costs for everyone. New pricing strategies will be based on recovering these costs and subsidies will be available for those in need. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It seems like decisions have already been made with regard to land reform. I would like to ask the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, why wouldn't you be consulting the affected parties in communities; band members.

Supplementary To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Mrs. Thompson.

Further Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I have said, this government cannot afford to continue with current land development and pricing practices. We must move toward recovering the costs of developing land and directing subsidies at those in need.

Mr. Speaker, on this we have no choice. However, there are a number of choices on how and when we can get a full cost-recovery approach. This is something we must work with community councils and organizations to determine. Many of these issues and options are available to community governments to decide how they will develop the pricing of land. That is the book I was just telling you about, Finding the Right Balance: Options for Changing Land Development Practices. We will be working with community governments and organizations to develop strategies for land development and pricing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The federal government has certain obligations to aboriginal people when it comes to lands in communities which are status, as IAB lands; lands from the Indian Affairs branch which pay for certain taxes on behalf of members. Is the federal government still obligated to do that instead of the individual members?

Supplementary To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Mrs. Thompson.

Further Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

Manitok Thompson Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have more information on Nunavut because we have settled land claims there and I know there have been land claims settled in this region. I will get back to the Member as soon as I can on his question.

Further Return To Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Question 220-13(3): Equal Treatment Re Land Reform For Eastern And Western Arctic
Item 6: Oral Questions

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Mr. Roland.

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 343

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Mr. Roland's Reply

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 343

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have been listening, with interest, over the past week, as my colleagues rise and give their ideas on the budget speech. Today I would like to share my own thoughts on the budget we will be looking at over the next two weeks.

Six months ago when we heard about the deficit as new MLAs, I was among the Members who wanted to balance the budget this year. Like others in the House, I personally try not to spend more than I have, and I would like to take the same approach with our public funds. Today I still believe we should be trying to balance the budget as soon as we can. However, balancing the budget has proven to be a huge and very difficult task. We have spent the last six months trying to find ways of living within our means. Through the standing committees, we have looked at every department, board and corporation. We have also been talking to our constituents, getting ideas and suggestions on what we can do to fix this problem.

One way to reduce your costs is to put projects off for a year or more. The government has done this, putting capital projects and new initiatives on the shelf. This will mean a few more classes with rooms designed for other uses; another year on a bad road in need of major maintenance; another season of makeshift arrangements for the barges at sealift. Some of my colleagues have suggested that we do more than this. There may be a few more areas where that could be done. If there are, I could support this. The less debt we accumulate, the more we can focus our money on programs rather than paying interest.

However, putting things off is only a temporary solution. At some point, most of the deferred projects will have to be done. In order to balance our budget, this government has to look at a whole new way of serving the people. We all came to the job with ideas from our constituents of how to do that. However, as much as we want to, we can't change things overnight. If we want those changes to be meaningful and effective, we want to make changes that will work. This means planning and knowing how we will make it happen before we go running off in different directions. This means relying on the advice of community residents and government staff who have experience with the programs and know what has been tried, what works and what doesn't work, and where there are areas for real change, not just window dressing.

Almost 60 per cent of our budget is spent on social programs. This isn't an area where we can just decide to put things off. We can't just say fine, we won't offer grade 2 next year; we're sorry, there will be no support for our elders. This is an area where we have to look at the options and be sure before we make decisions that would affect the people in a negative way. It isn't acceptable to me to do things like making hasty decisions to reduce social assistance, without knowing the impact of that change on the people who rely on the program. We can't just cut pieces out of the student support programs without considering how this will affect our students' abilities to become productive, contributing members of our society as adults.

As much as I wanted to see a balanced budget this year, I realized it would mean huge, huge cuts to social programs. As a territory, we are struggling with social issues. We need our people to be healthy, both mentally and physically, so they can take more control of their own lives. We need our people to be educated so they can be more self-reliant and help us create a strong economy. I strongly believe that investing in programs which help people feel better about themselves and which encourage people to take more responsibility for themselves and their families is crucial to reducing our social program costs in years to come. For example, I would rather pay for early intervention for a learning-disabled bled child now, knowing that the intervention will mean that the child has a better chance of making it through the school system, staying off welfare and out of the courts. Rather than just paying for the results of alcohol abuse -FAS/FAE children who need assistance for life; higher health costs for those with bodies ravaged by booze; higher correction costs from alcohol-related crimes -- I would support substance abuse programs to help people break the cycle now.

Many things in this budget focus on community empowerment. People across the North have been asking the government for years for more authority over the things that happen in their communities. The government is ready to help them do that.

The other thing people have been saying is that if money went to the communities, they could run the same programs for less money. I hope they are right. Our government resources are limited, the pie is only so big and each community will only get its own slice. As we transfer programs to communities, they will need to be creative in delivering those programs.

While there has to be lots of room for community direction in how programs are run, we also have an obligation to all residents to ensure that a consistent standard of programs and services is available, regardless of who is running the programs. It will take time to find the balance so when we make changes, there aren't a lot of cracks for people to slip through; particularly, in the social program, education, health, social services, justice and housing. We have to look at making our programs more effective in the communities. The community wellness strategy will help us do that. Through the strategy, individual communities will have the responsibility to determine approaches to dealing with those social concerns in a way that works for that community.

I am very concerned about fairness. The Minister of Finance and the Premier have talked about all northerners having to share in reductions of this budget. As we review the changes and reductions, I want to make sure there is fairness for all northerners. Salaries and benefits account for a large chunk of the government's budget. We have addressed this as part of our reductions. As MLAs, we have tried to lead the way by taking a cut in our salary and reducing our pensions by more than half. The government's senior and excluded staff have also taken wage and benefits reductions.

Mr. Speaker, as the Member for Inuvik, I've watched, with concern, the tendency to make bigger cuts in regional centres. True, there are more employees in these communities so there will be more reductions; however, these reductions should be consistent with the proportion of the population that lives in those larger communities.

Mr. Speaker, in my constituency, people are concerned about social programs. They are concerned about the lack of jobs. They want their children and grandchildren to grow up healthy and happy. When I look at the budget this government has introduced, I think it will help all northerners work towards a brighter future. That doesn't mean it will be easy. Northerners have become accustomed to a broad range of programs and services. We can't afford to keep these programs at their existing levels unless we dramatically change the way we do business. In the next few years, it will be difficult as we learn to live with what we can afford.

No, we aren't going to balance the budget this year; yes, I am disappointed. However, I also think the budget we are looking at is the best effort we could make at this time. We are making significant efforts to control our deficit without taking action which will be devastating to our constituents. Like my colleague, the Minister of Finance, I believe balancing the budget in one year would have required Draconian measures. Next year, we'll be looking back at the ways to get a balanced budget. This budget will give us the time to make sure we have a new and more effective way of doing business.

Mr. Speaker, when I put my name to paper during the election process, I said it's time to change the way government does business. Thank you.

--- Applause

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 345

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Item 9, replies to Budget Address. Mr. Enuaraq.

Mr. Enuaraq's Reply

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 345

Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate it if nobody falls asleep during my speech.

--- Laughter

My reply to the Budget Address would not be complete without expressing my concerns about the difficult situation facing many of our elders. I am concerned that, in some cases, support we are giving to elders has not kept up with increases in the cost of living. I am also concerned that sometimes it seems as if the right hand of the government is not aware of what the left hand is doing. Take elders' housing, for example. The Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation has made a positive announcement this session about housing for elders. The NWT Housing Corporation does not charge any rent to elders on old-age pension who are living in social housing. However, another department of the same government has pretty well doubled the amount charged to elders living in senior citizens' facilities. I want to describe the situation at the only elders' facility we have in Baffin, which is in Iqaluit, because right now, an elder from Pangnirtung is at the centre. This is the only facility in Baffin and it is depended on by people from other Baffin communities, not just Iqaluit.

I am grateful that elders living in social housing are forgiven rent. But why, I am asking myself, should the same elders who are living in a govern ment-supported elders' facility be paying such a large increase? This is the money that, in lots of cases, is being used to support an extended family. These elders are responsible for buying their own clothes. I would like to suggest that elders have a need for spending money like the rest of us. This is a big change for everyone, especially people on fixed incomes. I understand that this is the way elders are often charged in the South, but our elders should not be compared to elders in the South because their situation is quite different from those in the South.

When I ran for election, I promised to try to help improve the situation of our elders. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that many of our elders are in a very difficult situation as far as money is concerned. They have nothing in their houses. Sometimes they are alone. Often they are expected to care for grandchildren.

I know that our cost of living has increased a lot. I also know that the cost of living in my constituency is much more than that in Yellowknife. Has this been taken into account in determining what is a fair monthly payment for rent in an elders' facility for an elder from Pangnirtung, compared to an elder living in Fort Smith or Yellowknife? I would like to know whether the big differences in the cost of living have been taken into account in raising these charges or whether, like the Canada pension payments, everybody is treated the same no matter where they live.

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure we have paid enough attention to the situation of our elders in this budget. I know, as MLAs, we all depend on and respect elders in our constituencies who are our leaders and advisors. We pay tribute to them all the time. Mr. Speaker, I've heard our Ministers and our Premier say that the budget will not be cut on the backs of the poor. May I suggest that we should also agree that the budget should not be cut at the expense of our elders.

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 345

Edward Picco Iqaluit

Hear! Hear!

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 345

Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Picco. Mr. Speaker, I know that the territorial old-age supplement is now under review, and I heard Mr. Dent say yesterday that the food allowance levels for social assistance are also under review. Mr. Speaker, as I have come to understand it from my committee work, the territorial budget is a living thing. It is possible to have such things as supplementary funding or special warrants to make adjustments in the budget, even after it has been passed by this House.

I understand that the review of the territorial seniors' supplement and other income support payment is not expected to be completed until June. It is reasonable that the Minister and his officials should have some time to plan this out so it is done properly. I would like to see them take into account the differences in the cost of living when they review the territorial income supplement. I also agree with the point made by my colleague, Mr. Barnabas, yesterday, that the cost of living should be taken into account in figuring out how much the food allowance part of social assistance payments should be. So I will wait until June, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank Members for supporting my motion in Committee of the Whole the other day that these amounts should be reviewed. I was very happy to have the support of all Members of this House for that motion. I guess I should have noted on the record when that motion was passed, that the vote was unanimous. I was also grateful that my colleague from Yellowknife North and chair of the Government Operations committee, Mr. Erasmus, expressed his strong support for the motion.

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An Hon. Member

Hear! Hear!

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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Mr. Speaker, my motion simply recommended a review of the seniors' monthly supplement from the GNWT with a view to increasing this monthly payment so as to at least keep up to the cost of living.

Mr. Speaker, while doing my research to prepare for the motion I presented in Committee of the Whole, I was fortunate to meet Mrs. Esther Braden, president of the NWT Seniors' Society. Mrs. Braden told me that this concern has been brought up at all the recent meetings of the society, by representatives from various parts of the NWT. Mr. Speaker, I will be suggesting to Members of this Assembly that we should invite Mrs. Braden to make a presentation to us, either in Caucus or in this Assembly, on what advice our seniors would give us about this budget. I would like to hear their recommendations on how the lives of our valued and respected seniors in the NWT could be improved. I am grateful that our government is providing funds to allow this organization to meet once or twice a year, and I know that there is a seniors' help line on a 1-800 number that can be dialled free.

I was also pleased to hear the recent announcement from the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, the Honourable Goo Arlooktoo, that there will be a new program to help with seniors' housing needs. However, what I am concerned about is reviewing the level of the seniors' supplementary pension funding. I will very much look forward to hearing the results of the review.

I have some other comments about the budget, Mr. Speaker.

Firstly, I want to acknowledge that I have recently received several petitions asking for public debate on the subject of MLAs' compensation. Our rules do not allow that debate to take place at this time in our Assembly, but I'd like to say a few words on this. First of all, I can tell you that the subject of MLAs' wages and benefits was not an issue of concern in the election campaign in Baffin Central. I do not recall anyone asking me about that or raising it as a concern. I know that there are some people who are concerned that MLAs are making too much, especially when their wages and benefits, or even their jobs, are being cut. I have met with nurses, teachers and other government employees in my constituency who have faced sharp increases in their staff housing rents, who have been forced to pay for utilities, even though they have no other choice as to where they live. Recently, some of them have lost a sizable tax-free benefit which is considered part of their income and has been often used to buy equipment such as an outboard motor, skidoo or boat to take the family out on the land, not for a recreation trip to Montreal.

So I understand that concern, Mr. Speaker. I have made many statements in this House trying to explain the situation of government employees in my communities. Mr. Speaker, they have extended families. They are already stretched to the limit financially. It hurts me that it is the people with large families who are most affected by the cuts to wages and benefits of the non-unionized employees. I am concerned when I see examples of single persons or couples without children who are actually coming out further ahead financially than they were before, considering the impact of these cuts. This is not fair, Mr. Speaker. This is not equitable. This is not what Mr. Picco calls "fairity."

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Some Hon. Members

Hear! Hear!

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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

So I am not surprised that these hardworking, tax-paying NWT workers, as they call themselves, are very concerned about the wages and benefits paid to

MLAs. However, Mr. Speaker, there is another way of looking at this issue. Maybe I can explain what this issue means to me on a personal level. I am going to have to get personal because the changes are affecting me and my family. I live in Clyde River, as you know. It is a very expensive place to live. It is a long way to travel from Clyde River to Yellowknife and it costs a lot. I have six children and a very excellent, supportive wife. It is very important to me that, when I am away from home for long periods of time attending this Assembly, my wife and at least some of our children are here. It helps me to do a good job as MLA if I can have that support here in Yellowknife. I don't think it is unreasonable, considering the stress and pressures that we are all under in this Assembly, that we should be able to have family members staying with us during the long sessions of this Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, a large part of my income goes to the costs of looking after my family. I have to buy plane tickets for members of my family and pay other living expenses of that kind, because I live a long way from Yellowknife. I understand that there is concern that even after we reduced our indemnities and wages by seven per cent, some of the allowances we are getting for living expenses are being increased according to the cost of living. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you, from my personal experience, that the cost of living in Baffin Central is not staying the same. It is going up. I am afraid that fuel prices and air fares will increase. I am advocating taking into account increases in the cost of living for the territorial seniors' supplement. I agree with Mr. Barnabas that cost of living should be factored into the food allowances that are paid to people on social assistance across the Northwest Territories. I also believe that we should not be ashamed or guilty if the cost of living is taken into account in calculating our living allowances. This is not income, Mr. Speaker; these allowances are for expenses.

Mr. Speaker, many of the petitions I am receiving are signed by the members of the NWT Teachers' Association, in which I was once a member, and the Union of Northern Workers, and we are all aware that negotiations and collective bargaining are now going on. Mr. Speaker, some of the petitions I have received are making a link between MLAs' compensation and negotiations which are now going on between the union and the government. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it is appropriate for Members of this Assembly to be publicly involved in the negotiations which are now going on.

--- Applause

We should leave that to the negotiators, Mr. Speaker. However, we are always accountable to our constituents. Mr. Speaker, I am willing to be accountable to my constituents about what I am paid and what benefits are given to me. I know that the agreement we reached to cut back our indemnities ... For some reason, Mr. Speaker, I can't say that word.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Your time is up.

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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my reply to the Budget Address.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to complete his reply to the Budget Address. Are there any nays? Proceed, Mr. Enuaraq.

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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ...by seven per cent, to reduce the pension plan for new MLAs by a large amount, and to cut back our vacation travel benefit, has meant a lot less income for me personally. I appreciate the opportunity, while I am on the subject of our budget for 1996-97, to explain a little bit about how this issue affects me and my family. I thank you, Mr. Speaker and colleagues, for allowing me to do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Enuaraq. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Mr. Barnabas.

Mr. Barnabas's Reply

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Levi Barnabas High Arctic

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to reply to the Budget Address. There are lots of concerns which my constituents have. One of the most critical, which I have discussed with the honourable Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, Mrs. Manitok Thompson, has to do with recreation facilities in small, remote communities. Mr. Speaker, Resolute Bay and Grise Fiord are not eligible for arenas. They are too small. They do not expect to have an arena. However, this does not mean that they do not have recreation needs. It is just as important that young people in those small communities have the same opportunity to play hockey and skate in the winter, as young people who live in the larger communities. Mr. Speaker, if you take a close look at our climates in those two communities, you will note that there are two things which make it difficult for an outdoor skating program to succeed. Firstly, these communities are in total darkness through much of the winter. Also, they face more severe cold and wind than other communities further south. If our government is serious about allowing residents of these small communities the opportunity to play hockey and skate, then there must be some shelter for these outdoor rinks. I just want to, once again, thank the Minister of MACA for coming to these communities last month and for agreeing to look into ways her department could help to meet this need.

It may take some new approaches, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps we could look at what are called 'sprung structures," where material is stretched across a metal frame. These are cost effective and seem to have worked quite well in places like Nanisivik, if they are properly maintained. I know that some honourable Members are saying that we should look at slashing the capital budget, in order to reduce our deficit. However, I would remind my colleagues that not all communities have basic recreation facilities. We should finish the job off before we stop financing recreation facilities in communities whose needs have not yet been met. I ask my colleagues to work with me and support me to find a fair and reasonable solution to meet the recreation needs in the smallest communities before we say the job is done.

I listened to my honourable colleague, Mr. Ootes's, description of education and other social programs in his reply to the Budget Address yesterday. He described them as "cash-guzzling departments.' I would say that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment does a lot more than spend lots of cash. This department represents our future, Mr. Speaker. Unless we make our education system work for our people, the Nunavut government will not belong to us. We have not worked on creating Nunavut for over 20 years to create opportunities for outsiders to come in to our communities and take up the new job opportunities.

We must prepare our northern residents, Inuit and non-Inuit alike, to be able to take on many of the new job opportunities which will emerge. Mr. Speaker, I am very hopeful that the monies which have been announced by Mr. Irwin as being available for training or Nunavut, which is $39.8 million, can be managed by the GNWT through the Nunavut Arctic College.

We have a system in place which will allow a good deal of training to take place at the community level, through the Nunavut Arctic College and each community's learning centre. This is the best way of getting the maximum results from the monies which have been made available. I understand that the funds are less than had been recommended or requested by the NIC and the GNWT, but let us at least make sure that what we do have to spend on training is spent using our existing college system.

I will give our Minister of Education my full support to pursue this goal with the Minister of Indian Affairs in the weeks and months ahead. We must make the best use of this money. It must be spent in an effective manner, as much at the community level as possible. This can only be done using the Nunavut Arctic College. We do not need to create new bodies to deliver this training. We do not need the federal government to come into the North and do the training for us. Let us use our Nunavut Arctic College system, which is accountable to our constituents through this Assembly and which is overseen by a board of the governors which represents all the regions of Nunavut.

That is my advice to Mr. Todd and Mr. Dent. Let us make sure that we at least have a big say in how the education and training money for Nunavut is spent.

I went to also express my support for the Nunavut Caucus, the Premier, Cabinet Ministers and especially the Division committee of Cabinet which is pursuing the question of how we can best spend education and training money and also the other important issues of concern to do with the creation of Nunavut: The decentralized government model; the management of infrastructure funds; the adequacy of the formula for funding ongoing operations of the Nunavut government and the government of the Western Territory. I am pleased that we are working closely together as a Nunavut Caucus and also that we are working closely together with the Cabinet and the key Cabinet Ministers -- the Premier, the Deputy Premier and the Ministers of Finance and Municipal and Community Affairs -- so that we have a clear message and a strong message. I have confidence in those Ministers and in my colleagues on the Nunavut Caucus, and particularly my colleague and co-chair, Mr. John Ningark.

I am very pleased that this overdue meeting was called at the initiative of the Nunavut Caucus, and I am very pleased that all the Members of the Nunavut Caucus participated strongly at the recent Nunavut leaders' summit in Arviat and that we worked together to make our positions very clear. We are still waiting for answers and clarification on some of our recommendations, but I believe they were made in a manner which makes sense and requires a thoughtful response from both the federal government and Nunavut Tunngavik.

In this connection, Mr. Speaker, I want to make a few comments. Although I am only a new MLA and this was my first attendance at a Nunavut leaders' summit, I was disappointed at the recent meeting to note a very confrontational and personal approach taken by some participants at the meeting. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to single anyone out for criticism. However, may I again repeat the wise words of Mr. Ludy Pudluk in his farewell speech to this Legislative Assembly: "People are not electing us to become enemies," Mr. Pudluk said. 'They are electing us to work together. We are expected, by our people, to work together, help each other and develop the North, not to make enemies."

I will repeat this advice again, Mr. Speaker, to remind all Nunavut leaders that we have gotten this far by working together. We must continue to do so again. Although we will have very difficult issues to face, we must face them together in a spirit of mutual respect. I understand there will be disagreements on how certain issues should be handled and about who should do what. But let us show respect and courtesy to one another as we work on these sometimes difficult issues.

I want to make some other comments about the budget which is before us.

Mr. Speaker, I have already put on record my concerns about social assistance rates and, particularly, the adequacy of the food allowance component of social assistance. My constituents who must depend on social assistance were hurt by the cutbacks announced before Christmas. I know that the objects of some of those cutbacks were to provide encouragement for people to work and less incentive for them to remain on welfare. I am all for this, provided there are jobs these people can take up. However, there are not enough jobs available for everyone who wants to work in my communities, and some people, try as we might, are unable to work -elders, handicapped people, those who are victims of abuse or addictions. Mr. Speaker, if people must be on welfare because there is no alternative, we should be at least providing them with enough to keep their families properly fed. Our food allowance rates have not been revised in three years and they are not allocated with the large differences in the cost of living taken into account. This was pointed out by the special committee in the last House. I know that Mr. Dent was an active Member of that committee and was its chairperson. I know that he does not need to be reminded of what the committee recommended in those areas. He told us that himself yesterday. Mr. Speaker, the food allowance must be reviewed and made current and equitable. This is an unfinished item of business in the Education budget.

I also want to reiterate issues I raised yesterday in the Committee of the Whole, with regard to the Education budget, on which I still have specific concerns. I will mention these concerns. today.

School Community Counsellors

I am informed by the Baffin divisional board that, due to changes in the way school community counsellors are funded, the divisional board anticipates that they may be receiving funding for only 12 of the 15 positions which are now in place. They expect to have to fund the remaining three positions out of their own budget. Mr. Speaker, in our region, we need school community counsellors for every school, not just for a community, if we are to do the job right. A survey of student social and emotional and learning needs, done by the department several years ago, showed that the percentage of students needing counselling services in the NWT was higher than elsewhere in Canada. Funding in this area is particularly important if we are to see our students from community schools succeed and go on to take jobs in Nunavut. There are five communities in Baffin which will have more then one school next year. The board is already employing elders and using funds from other sources to try to meet this need. Most high schools in the rest of Canada provide counselling services for students. This counselling is academic, personal and career. I want to know how the counselling needs will be met in communities which do not qualify for school community counsellor funding, according to the current formula for allocating funding, and if counselling positions are not provided as part of community grade extensions.

Forced Growth

Mr. Dent said yesterday that if the school population grows by more than eight per cent, the divisional boards can come back to the department and request supplementary funding for the portion that is above eight per cent. That is of some comfort to me. However, being able to request supplementary funding does not mean that it will be granted. I will be wanting to ask the Minister what this really means. Is there a reserve for forced growth? Our problem in Baffin is that our enrolment is increasing about 5.5 per cent each year. If the department now only considers supplementary funding after increases of more than eight per cent, does that mean we must wait two years before the Baffin can receive supplementary funding for the number of students we have? This is made more difficult by the fact that the funding provided by the department is based on enrolment as of October of the previous year. If a percentage cut is made to the board's budget which is anticipated this year, and this cut is made after enrolments are determined, then if there are significant increases in enrolment, as in Baffin, the effect of this will be that the Baffin regional board will not be funded this year for their actual enrolments. If that is the way the formula works, that each board spends a year trying to catch up without adequate funds because they are stuck with October enrolments from the previous year, then this is built-in unfairness for the communities where enrolments are growing. Mr. Speaker, I believe that if the government is not going to fund forced growth, they should say so up front, and not hide behind formulas which do not allow the current enrolment numbers to be reflected in the current-year funding.

Teacher Education 1%.

Mr. Speaker, Arctic College and the Nunavut boards have worked very hard together to develop a five-year plan for teacher education in Nunavut. This plan is well known to the Department of Education. This plan shares resources currently used to support teacher education through the college and community-based funds as well as board funds.

I am very happy that community-based TEP programs are now in place in Nunavut: in Cape Dorset, Cambridge Bay and Coral Harbour. However, I understand that the contribution from the Department of Education for community-based programs may be less in the coming year than originally expected. I am told that this uncertainty could seriously affect the ability to continue to offer the three community-based programs in Nunavut next year. The expected reduced funding levels could jeopardize these important programs, I am told. Unfortunately, even though we are now considering the Education budget in Committee of the Whole, the boards still do not know exactly what they will be granted. This uncertainty this far along in the new fiscal year is something I am concerned about. I would hope that before we are concluded with this budget session, we will know exactly how this new budget will affect the boards of education and the programs they are running.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my reply to the Budget Address.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. The Member for High Arctic is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his reply to the Budget Address. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Continue, Mr. Barnabas.

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Levi Barnabas High Arctic

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Translation ends) One question which I am told is not now resolved and is under dispute between the Department of Education, Arctic College and the divisional boards is who pays the fees which are required to be paid every year for the students from Cape Dorset, Cambridge Bay and Coral Harbour. These fees will amount to $150,000 this year. Right now, a I understand it, the Department of Education officials are still refusing to pay for these fees for 1995-96. The college and the boards are also waiting for an answer about whether the department will be paying these fees for 1996-97. In other words, once again, on an important part of the community-based TEP program, we do not know whether or not the Department of Education will continue the level of support it provided in previous years, by paying the McGill students' costly tuition fees.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that everyone who has studied this program would agree that it has been a great success. The link which has been established between Nunavut Arctic College and the first-class Department of Education in McGill University, which has a very good reputation across Canada, has produced good results. Since 1985, a total of 57 teachers from Nunavut have completed their Bachelor of Education degrees. This compares with 35 students who have received Bachelor of Education degrees since 1969

from the TEP program in the Aurora College, which is connected to the University of Saskatchewan.

The answers to all these questions -- forced growth, student counsellor positions, tuition fees and base funding for community-based TEP programs -- will very much affect the ability of the divisional boards to do their jobs. I would like the Minister of Education to tell us where he stands on these currently outstanding issues before we finally approve the budget of this department. We should know exactly what is provided for in this budget and what is not.

Mr. Speaker, these are some of my concerns with this budget. I will hope that these comments in my reply to the Budget Address will be well received by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Education. I am hope my concerns are clearly explained and that they can be dealt with during this session or soon after. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. I am aware that this is the final day to do replies to the Budget Address. There is an indication that there is another honourable Member to do a reply to the Budget Address. Before we continue, we will take a short break.

--- SHORT RECESS

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

I call the House back to order. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Mr. Erasmus.

Mr. Erasmus's Reply

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was pleased to see that this government is committed to eliminating the deficit over a period of two years. Particularly in the social programs area, it could be extremely difficult to eliminate the deficit in one year. We would have to take, as someone is prone to say, Draconian measures which would be especially difficult in the education, health and social services areas. I am glad to see that this government is implementing new initiatives to help make a transition in the social programs a rea.

Everybody seems to be in favour of eliminating the deficit; not only the MLAs, but the general public, too. The problem is that when a reduction affects someone, he or she begins to complain. But what areas should we cut? Some people say education, health and social services are very important. Other people say jobs are important. Other people say other areas are important. But if people don't want us to cut in certain areas, they should tell us, but they should also tell us where to cut because cuts have to be made. It doesn't mean as much to me if a person tells me not to cut in a certain area because that cut is going to affect that person. It means more if someone tells me not to cut and that person is not actually directly affected. For instance, if Joe Blow works for the union and he tells me, do whatever you can to ensure that wages aren't cut, I am listening to that person, but it doesn't mean the same if Harry Carry from Hard Luck Bay, who is not a union member, comes to me and tells me, don't cut wages from the union. That means more to me, because that person is not actually affected. But, if people don't want us to make cuts, then they should indicate to me and to the others here how to raise $100 million in each of the next three years, because that's what it means. If we don't make cuts, we have to raise $100 million or so in each of the next three years. If someone shows me how to do that, I will gladly work against making any cuts whatsoever.

But don't tell me I don't understand the situation. I have more information than you do. Don't tell me that I don't understand a bill that we are trying to pass or that we have passed, unless you're a lawyer. Don't tell me I don't care about union workers when I have six immediate family members and countless relatives and friends who work for government or who are directly affected by negotiations with the unions.

Once again, I approve the overall direction of the budget. I don't approve of every item. Nobody does; not Mr. Picco, not Mr. Miltenberger and not me. Sometimes you have to give in certain areas in order to keep things or to gain in other areas. As I indicated earlier, I do approve of the two year approach to balancing the budget. I also approve of the transition period for new initiatives. As Mr. Roland inferred earlier, sometimes we need to invest now to save even more in the future. New initiatives are investments. A few of them are early intervention; keeping people in school; the mortgage investment corporation; and, also, keeping an old program, keeping the business incentive program.

However, we also need to concentrate on jobs, and we need to show commitment to the people who have shown a commitment to the North. This means, when we're laying people off, that long-term Northerners should be the last to go. If they're laid off, they should be helped to find a placement in another area. They should be helped with retraining if it's required. I also support that only long-term residents should get scholarships.

I am also committed to these initiatives. I will help implement them and I will do my part in this government. That means working in my committees, doing research, making suggestions where warranted, reviewing plans, evaluating performances of departments and other related duties. I also intend to keep an eye on Cabinet to ensure that commitments are kept and programs and reductions are implemented fairly. This includes asking questions in the House. This includes setting up meetings with Ministers for people with concerns or problems. Also, if I come up with a good suggestion like electronic monitoring, I will not just take no for an answer. Before I drop my idea, I will need to be convinced it cannot save money or that it cannot improve conditions for residents of the Northwest Territories. In short, Mr. Speaker, I intend to make the Cabinet accountable and to offer constructive criticism and suggestions where

warranted. Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude that, while I support balancing the budget in two years, I want to emphasize that it is extremely important to actually balance the budget next year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--- Applause

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Arlooktoo.

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Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, I have a few petitions to table today. They are both on the same subject, so I will just read the preamble of one. I would like to present Petition No. 22-13(3) and Petition No. 23-13(3) and part of it says, please have any and all people in your community sign a petition to your MLA stating the following: "We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." We have 16 signatures from Qaqqalik School in Lake Harbour and 26 signatures from Sanikiluaq.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to present Petition No. 24-13(3), dealing with the matter of the MLA compensation report. Mr. Speaker, the petition contains 33 signatures and, Mr. Speaker, the petitioners request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Evaloarjuk.

Item 11: Petitions
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Mark Evaloarjuk Amittuq

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two petitions. I would like to present Petition No. 25-13(3), 41 signatures from Igloolik; and, Petition No. 26-13(3), 60 signatures from Pond Inlet. 'We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Enuaraq.

Item 11: Petitions
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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present Petition No. 27-13(3), signed by 10 residents of Broughton Island. It states: "We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved."

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present Petition No. 28-13(3), signed by 53 residents of Pangnirtung. 'We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved."

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present Petition No. 29-13(3), signed by six employees of Broughton Island Health Centre, which states: "UNW Members are not the cause of the deficit; cutting positions and rolling back wages is not the solution. Cutbacks will bring hardship to the entire northern communities. Private enterprise does not work on community service. Private enterprise works for profit. Privatization will cost more. Considering the above, it is your responsibility to oppose the government's plan to cut and slash."

Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present Petition No. 30-13(3), signed by 10 staff of the Pangnirtung Health Centre, which states: "We, as the staff of Pangnirtung Health Centre, union employees, are opposed to the cuts to our benefits as outlined in the collective agreement. We already receive minimum financial gratification considering our severe rent and cost of living. We are opposed to the government attacking the hard-working, taxpaying NWT workers." Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Enuaraq. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Picco.

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Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present 10 petitions: Petition No. 31-13(3) deals with the matter of the MLA compensation report. Mr. Speaker, the petitions contain 131 signatures from residents of Iqaluit and, Mr. Speaker, the petitioners request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved. I have no problem with that, Mr. Speaker.

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Rabesca.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

James Rabesca North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to present two petitions: Petition No. 32-13(3) is from Rae-Edzo Chief Jimmy Bruneau School with 78 signatures; and, Petition No. 33-13(3), is from Jean Wetrade School in Rae Lakes with four signatures, totalling 82 names. They both read: "We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Rabesca. Item 11, Mr. Ng.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have four petitions. The first one, Petition No. 34-13(3), is from staff of the Jimmy Hikok Ilihakvik School: We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." It is signed by 21 individuals.

The second one, Petition No. 35-13(3), is from other residents of Kugluktuk, stating: "We, the undersigned, request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." It is signed by 25 individuals.

The third one, Petition No. 46-13(3), is from staff of the Kullik llihakvik School regarding salary and benefit cuts to teachers: "We, the undersigned, are concerned about the apparent refusal by the MLAs in the NWT to take the same cuts in salaries and benefits as they are demanding from their employees. We are also concerned about the attitude from the MLAs towards the recommendations contained in the MLA compensation review report. Because of our concerns, we request that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." It is signed by 22 individuals.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, Petition No. 37-13(3) is from 18 other individuals in Cambridge Bay: "We, the undersigned, request

that the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Henry.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present Petition No. 38-13(3), signed by 26 teachers at St. Patrick High School in Yellowknife. They state: "We; the undersigned, request the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I have two petitions as well: Petition No. 39-13(3) is from the Mackenzie Mountain School in Norman Wells signed by 13 staff members. I also have Petition 40-13(3) from Fort Good Hope signed by 34 staff members and constituents. Both petitions suggest that: 'We, the undersigned, request the MLA compensation package be publicly debated and resolved." Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 11: Petitions
Item 11: Petitions

Page 351

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 11, petitions. Item 12, reports of standing and special committees. Item 13, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 14, tabling of documents. Mr. Erasmus.

Item 14: Tabling Of Documents
Item 14: Tabling Of Documents

Page 351

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table Tabled Document 44-13(3), which requests public debate and resolution of the MLA compensation package which is signed by two teachers from Kaw Tay Whee School.

Item 14: Tabling Of Documents
Item 14: Tabling Of Documents

Page 351

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 14, tabling of documents. Item 15, notices of motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Motion 8-13(6): Recision Of March 28, 1996 Committee Of The Whole Decision
Item 15: Notices Of Motion

Page 351

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Thursday, May 16, 1996, I will move the following motion: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, that the motion adopting the report of the chairman of Committee of the Whole on Thursday, March 28, 1996, in respect to the position taken by this House that the discussion on the report of the Commission on MLA Compensation had been concluded, be rescinded; and further, that Tabled Document 1-13(3), be referred back to Committee of the Whole for further consideration.

Motion 8-13(6): Recision Of March 28, 1996 Committee Of The Whole Decision
Item 15: Notices Of Motion

Page 351

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Item 16, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Item 18, first reading of bills. Mr. Todd.

Bill 13: Loan Authorization Act, 1996-97
Item 18: First Reading Of Bills

May 13th, 1996

Page 351

John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that Bill 13, Loan Authorization Act, 1996-97, be read for the first time.

Bill 13: Loan Authorization Act, 1996-97
Item 18: First Reading Of Bills

Page 352

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Your motion is in order. To the motion.

Bill 13: Loan Authorization Act, 1996-97
Item 18: First Reading Of Bills

Page 352

Some Hon. Members

Question.

Bill 13: Loan Authorization Act, 1996-97
Item 18: First Reading Of Bills

Page 352

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Bill 13 has had first reading. Item 18, first reading of bills. Item 19, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act; Bill 11, Appropriation Act, 1996-97; Committee Report 1-13(3), Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 2-13(3), Standing Committee on Infrastructure Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 3-13(3), Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 4-13(3), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates, with Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 352

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I will call Committee of the Whole to order. There are a number of matters before Committee of the Whole today. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Erasmus.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 352

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to suggest that we resume deliberation of Bill 11 and I believe we had just concluded Economic Development and Tourism and were ready to start with Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 352

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Is everyone agreed?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 352

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 352

Some Hon. Members

Department Of Energy, Mines And Petroleum Resources

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Page 352

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

We will have Mr. Kakfwi provide us with the opening remarks on the department. Mr. Kakfwi.

Minister's Introductory Remarks

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 352

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairman. Does that make sense? Madam Chair. Sorry.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to present to Members of this House the budget of the Department of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources. This department's mandate is to manage the development and use of non-renewable and energy resources for the maximum social and economic benefit of the people in the Northwest Territories.

With the consolidation of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources with the departments of Renewable Resources and Economic Development and Tourism, responsibilities for energy and non-renewable resources will be delivered through a much larger organization. This should result in increased focus and effectiveness in bringing new private sector investment and increased economic benefits to the North through non-renewable resource development.

The proposed 1996-97 budget for the Department of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources is $5.242 million, which includes a capital budget of $25,000 and 27.9 person years. The proposed budget reflects a reduction of $69,000, or about eight per cent, from the 1995-96 budget. Overall, the budget for the department is very small and represents about one-half of one per cent of this government's total budget.

Madam Chair, the importance of the energy and minerals sectors to our economic future cannot be overestimated.

In round figures, the Government of the Northwest Territories alone spends about $100 million per year on energy, mainly in the form of refined petroleum products. Unnecessary energy consumption drains our economy and our finances, not to mention its negative impact on the environment.

Mineral exploration expenditures in the NWT continue to lead all other jurisdictions in Canada by a substantial margin; $190 million was spent in 1995, and the industry is expected to spend $220 million on mineral exploration in the NWT in 1996.

These investments are very important to our future. As the Minister of Finance stated in his budget address last week, it is clear from any objective analysis that the responsible development of our mineral resources represents the single most important opportunity that we have for sustainable economic growth.

Non-renewable resources provide the greatest opportunities to create new jobs and increased business opportunities, a stronger small-business sector, a larger economic base, increased own-source revenues and increased economic self-sufficiency.

I should also emphasize that, by taking advantage of these opportunities, we do not have to sacrifice the environment, our cultures or traditional lifestyles. Through responsible resource development, using modern technologies, effective regulatory mechanisms and impact and benefit agreements with communities and aboriginal organizations, mineral development will provide a significant net benefit to the NWT over the long term.

We are fortunate to have a wide distribution of mineral activity, both in terms of location and commodity. Although attention has centred on diamonds in the Slave Geological Province, there are numerous gold and base metals exploration plays and advanced priorities in other regions such as the Kitikmeot, Keewatin and Baffin.

Experience has clearly demonstrated that the single most cost-effective incentive that government can provide to encourage mineral exploration, particularly in remote areas, is through the development of geoscience information and geological maps. The mineral exploration industry depends on geological maps as a basic exploration tool. Many of the key mineral discoveries in the North and across Canada can be traced to geosciences and mapping programs.

As I mentioned, more exploration dollars are spent in the Northwest Territories than any other jurisdiction in Canada, but at the standard scale of one to 50,000, less than five per cent of our land has been mapped. This is less than one-tenth the coverage in southern Canada. It is therefore very important that we make an investment in the continued development of an information base about our geological resources.

Under the proposed budget, the department will carry out four mapping projects in 1996. Our mapping programs are planned in close consultation with the industry and with other agencies to ensure that they provide maximum benefit to future exploration.

Additional funding will be allocated to prospectors' assistance programs, which include grubstakes grants and prospector training and for the community minerals program. Under this program, professional knowledge and expertise is made available to residents and organizations at the community level, and communications with the industry are facilitated so that our residents can better understand and take advantage of mineral activity in their regions.

The department will also be working closely with the industry and the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to establish workforce development initiatives which will help to maximize northern and aboriginal employment in the oil and gas and mineral sectors.

Madam Chair, if we are to bring new investment dollars to the North to create new, sustainable jobs and business opportunities, then we must work together to continuously improve our investment climate. Industry needs a predictable and efficient regulatory process; it needs to have access to land to explore and it needs a fair and competitive fiscal regime.

The Minister of Finance, in his Budget Address, spoke to creative partnerships, where individuals, businesses, aboriginal organizations and all levels of government pool their resources to stimulate economic growth and job creation. An excellent example of this approach is reflected in the NWT community mobilization partnership and job development strategy. The department is one of the cofounders of this society, along with DIAND, BHP and several northern businesses.

Oil and gas exploration activity has resumed in the Sahtu region and around the community of Fort Liard, following a 25-year moratorium. This activity has provided an important new infusion of employment and business activities into a number of our communities.

The department will be working closely with other communities in the Mackenzie Valley where land claims have not yet been settled, in order to build arrangements under which oil and gas exploration rights can be issued, and thereby create additional economic activities for our residents.

I am pleased to say that a complaint raised by the department is likely to result in a significant reduction in the tariff for the Norman Wells pipeline. This will enhance the economic value of oil in the Sahtu region and should thereby result in increased industry activity over the long term.

Although exploration activity in the Mackenzie-Delta and Beaufort Sea is unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future, there is evidence of increasing interest in the development and production of existing oil reserves.

The department will be closely monitoring these developments and will be working with the industry and regulatory agencies to facilitate the establishment of an effective and efficient review and approval process in advance of actual project applications.

Madam Chair, I am very interested in energy management and conservation. As this government faces a continuing need to reduce wasteful expenditures, increased attention must be devoted to energy awareness and technical advisory services to energy users.

The department will be stepping up its efforts to promote energy conservation and the utilization of alternative energy sources in our communities. The department will also be working with the Department of Public Works and Services to consolidate the delivery of energy management programs.

A new position of community energy advisor was recently created in order to provide direct assistance to communities in their efforts to reduce energy expenditures and develop alternative energy options using sources such as wind, solar and biomass. Alternative energy sources have the potential of not only reducing expenditures but of also creating new employment and business opportunities and increased self-reliance at the community level.

Madam Chair, people of the North do not have control over their resources. Therefore, I am pleased to hear that the Minister of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs has recently confirmed that he regards devolution of remaining provincial-type programs and jurisdictions as a priority, and he has reaffirmed his commitment to proceeding with this initiative. The federal government has also indicated, in the February Throne Speech, that it is prepared to withdraw from its functions in such areas as mining. This is consistent with statements that the Prime Minister made at the opening of this Legislative Assembly building.

As Members of this Legislature know, the Premier has the lead responsibility for the northern accord. The department will have an important role to play in supporting the Premier in the negotiation of this agreement. The additional responsibilities that should be transferred to this government, including land and water, environment, oil and gas and minerals, would be the primary responsibility of the new consolidated department.

The department will be devoting substantial time and resources during 1996-97 to planning and implementing the consolidation with Renewable Resources and Economic Development and Tourism. Consolidation will provide opportunities for more effective delivery of support to our regions and communities in the critical areas of energy and non-renewable resource development.

As a final note, I believe we should be very encouraged by the fact that, at a time when we face a reduced level of government spending, the private sector is increasing its investment in the long-term economic future of the North. We must work together to encourage continued investment and to maximize the level of long-term benefits that it brings to the residents. Through responsible resource development managed under a new consolidated department, we will be able to significantly improve our self-reliance over the long term. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 354

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Would a Member of the Resource Management Committee care to make comments on the committee's review of the departmental estimates? Mr. Ootes.

Standing Committee On Resource Management And Development Comments

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 354

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Chair. It is my pleasure to present the comments of the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development regarding this department. Yesterday, we presented some general comments on the three departments of Economic Development and Tourism, Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources and Renewable Resources. However, we also had some specific comments regarding the Department of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources.

The committee was uncomfortable with the unequal distribution of resources from this department. Although its budget is relatively small, Members noted that the largest part was to be spent in the headquarters area. The committee feels that non-renewable resource opportunities exist throughout the Northwest Territories and hopes that, through the amalgamation of ED&T, EM&PR and Renewable Resources, funding and expertise ran be more equitably distributed amongst the regions; thus encouraging community-based initiatives. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 354

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Would the Minister like to call any witnesses to join him before we enter into the comments?

For the record, Mr. Minister, would you please introduce your witness?

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 354

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have with me the deputy minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, Mr. Graham Nicholls.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 354

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Are there any general comments on the departmental estimates? Mr. Krutko.

General Comments

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 354

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

With regard to the statement made by the Member of the Resource Management committee, there has to be a distribution of resource people in the different regions and not only in Yellowknife. There has to be an effort made to collect information, as the Minister stated. There is a possibility of mineral development in the Mackenzie Mountains, the Mackenzie Valley for oil and gas and with regard to the Beaufort Sea. There has to be an effort made to start spreading these resources around and for the people to come with it, to ensure that they don't just concentrate on one sector. You have to start looking at the other sectors, such as the petroleum area and the potential of mineral development. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 354

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 354

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Member is correct. We hope to be able to do that with input from the appropriate committee through the consolidation exercise. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 354

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Any general comments? Mr. Roland.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 354

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chair. It is interesting to see that there is going to be an increase in the mineral exploration in the NWT in 1996. We can take advantage of this without sacrificing environment or culture and traditional lifestyles. I think that is positive. It is a message we can work on getting out. I am very interested in the department and the area of energy conservation and utilization of alternative energy sources, with the position of a new energy advisor. I will be dealing with it later on in detail, but I would be very interested in seeing what the plans are here. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 354

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Would the Minister care to respond?

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 354

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

We can try to provide more detail later, but it is also an area of interest to myself and to the department. One of the things we pointed out is that the Northwest Territories is one of the largest users of diesel power generators in the world. The Power Corporation spends well over $35 million a year buying fuel for their generators across the Northwest Territories. It is my view and the view of the department that many of the consumers of this energy could and would benefit from some public education, advice and suggestions on how they can reduce the amount of energy they consume on a daily and yearly

basis. We have some ideas on how we can initiate that, so we could reduce costs to the government, to the Power Corporation and to the businesses. We could have some further detail when we get to that in the detail.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Ootes.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

I received a letter which is signed by 12 people who took an Arctic College mining course. They completed it in the summer of 1995, which is a year ago. This letter is addressed to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Their concern was they couldn't find employment in the mining industry. I wonder if the Minister is familiar with this letter and if he could look into this. The question is, is the course of no value. With all the mining activity going on in the Territories, surely people who take a mining course should be able to find employment, but 12 out of 13 haven't been able to find employment.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

I am not aware of the letter. So if the Member provides us with a copy, we will look into it.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Would the committee like to move on to detail?

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Line By Line

Energy, Mines And Petroleum Resources

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Could I refer your attention to page 12-10, Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, operations and maintenance, total operations and maintenance, $5.217 million.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Detail of capital, Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, equipment acquisition, headquarters, total region, $25,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Acquisition, $25,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Total equipment

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Total activity, $25,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Detail of grants and contributions, contributions, $265,000. Mr. Henry.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question under the prospectors' assistance program. I believe you alluded to it in your opening remarks. Additional funding will be allocated to prospectors' assistance programs which includes grubstakes grants and prospector training. With the amount of financial resources that are being committed to the Northwest Territories -- and I understand from your opening remarks that it is the highest in Canada -- do you think there is a need for this at this time?

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, I understand that there are always people out there who need people who are prospectors by trade. They occasionally need a grubstake in order to do the job that they know how to do. There are many people in Yellowknife who do this type of work and sometimes need financial support to do it. That is what this program is for. We average somewhere between $3,000 and $8,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Miltenberger.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question to the Minister about the development impact zones contributions. How many of these are still in existence and where are they?

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

There is one Development Impact Zone Society still operating and it's in Norman Wells.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 355

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Miltenberger.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 355

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Could the Minister indicate if this is still a functioning committee or is it just on the books? Are they doing anything constructive?

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Page 355

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

It is functioning with the ... (inaudible) ... regional council. The board for the DIZ society and the board for the Sahtu regional council were one and the same, so we now have to decide how to get a new board for the society. But it is operating and it's operating very well, I would say. It provides a tremendous amount of information to us, as a government, to industry and to the Sahtu communities in terms of the activity of oil companies, the impact of some of the exploration leases that have come down recently, in projecting the numbers of jobs and types of jobs that would become available as a result of these new developments and suggestions on how we could maximize the benefits to the region and to the communities within the Sahtu. So, seeing it first-hand, I know what a

great job that society is doing for a limited amount of money. Members are aware that these DIZ societies are funded by the federal government, the territorial government and industry, so we don't fund them totally. We just fund a part of it, so we get very good mileage and product for the amount of dollars we put into it. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 356

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Miltenberger.

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. Would this type of organization be considered in other areas where there is definite development impact; say, Lac de Gras with the Dogrib people, or other areas in the North where they are looking at other kinds of mining developments? Would the department or the government be considering the institution of this kind of structure to provide that same service? Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 356

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, I believe that these are excellent vehicles for all the different parties that are involved when development happens; sort of a central clearing/coordinating house for information from industry to industry, from aboriginal leaders to aboriginal leaders, to the territorial government, to the municipalities and to the private business communities. When development happens, we need some sort of a one-stop shop, as the current phrase is used, and DIZ societies -- at least in the one I see operating right now -- provide that in a very efficient way. So I believe that other communities or regions that are enjoying the benefit from development, whether it's oil and gas or minerals, should look at this as another way to enhance the positive impact of development. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Page 356

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is with regard to the prospectors' assistance program as well. I am not at all familiar with this program. Perhaps the Minister could give me some indication as to who would qualify for these grubstakes and what the terms are for someone to qualify for a grubstake.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, I believe that most of the prospectors who have previously prospected are known to people in government. Other individuals would show that they've taken some courses in prospecting, for instance. So these are the type of people that we would finance in much the same way as we would help trappers. People know that for certain individuals, their only occupations are hunting and trapping. There are other individuals who primarily prospect for a living. So we will very soon be advertising to let people know that courses are available for people who are interested in prospecting and that we will be taking applications from people who are interested in prospecting and may require a grubstake in order to get out to do the prospecting. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am wondering if the Minister could give me an idea as to how many prospectors we would be helping with $100,000. What is the department's goal? How many do they see us being able to assist? Is there a limit to how much a person can apply for?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, we expect that with $100,000 we should be able to help between 20 and 25 prospectors; probably approximately $5,000 to $8,000 per prospector.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen, any further questions?

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Madam Chair, normally when you grubstake somebody, you expect something in return. That is where the word grubstake comes from. As I understand it, you expect something in return. What do we expect in return if we grubstake these people?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, we expect that the people to which we provide grubstakes will file reports with us as to the work that they carry out while out prospecting. They are required to file a report with us.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chair. My question for the Minister is on the Canadian Energy Research Institute. Is this part of this alternative energy program?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Nicholls will answer that question.

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Nicholls

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Canadian Energy Research Institute has a very wide range of expertise in the energy sector generally, which includes alternative and renewable energy as well as utilities and oil and gas; so the sponsorship that we have provides us with ready access to that expertise. They are able to do some specialized work for us and it gives us a good pipeline into the energy industry in general. So, yes, alternative energy is covered, but a lot of other types of information and expertise is made available to us through the sponsorship.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chair. Is there anywhere else in the details here on the area of alternative energy to do with this community energy advisor? Where does that fall within this area?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Kakfwi.

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Nicholls

Thank you, Madam Chair. The community energy advisor is an employee of the department, therefore wouldn't be covered within the detail of grants and contributions. That individual, in a manner similar in philosophy to the community minerals advisor, will make himself available to provide expertise and assistance to communities to assist them in bringing out renewable and alternative energy projects. It's important to work at the community level to bring about changes to the way energy is supplied. So that individual would be an employee of the department and was just brought on staff this week.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Roland.

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chair. So this Canadian Energy Research Institute and the amount here of $25,000 is for a subscription to their information, basically.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

Yes, in a sense, that's correct. The Canadian Energy Research Institute board, of which we are a member, includes a number of provincial governments and senior companies in the industry and utilities. So it's not only a subscription to information, it also provides us with an ability to direct some of the work of the institute and to acquire a lot of information and advice at the same time.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

I wonder if I could get an explanation of what the community mobilization partnership and job development strategy is.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

That initiative involves, I think, about 40 business partners, a number of communities, and was originally ... The impetus was provided by BHP in order to assist communities to realize the employment and business opportunities that would be brought about from its project as well as other development projects in the entire region; from Kugluktuk right down to Fort Providence. So they've been having quite a number of meetings with the communities. They recently brought a number of them together, through the society, to a workshop last week here in Yellowknife. Members of the House might be aware of the follow-up workshop that will be held at the Koala campsite at the end of May. There will certainly be a follow-up to come after that.

It's important to point out that this is a process that has focused on community development and the realization of benefits. So there aren't preordained outcomes that have been specifically identified, it's more a process of involvement and problem solving and strength building. The department was instrumental, along with a number of other agencies, in getting it up off the ground.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

I noticed the job development strategy aspect. Is there a possibility that this partnership can start identifying where possible jobs are in the mining and petroleum sectors?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

Yes, Madam Chair. Yes, definitely, that was discussed at the workshop in Yellowknife that I just mentioned. It is more than just identifying the types of jobs available. They are also putting together a fairly comprehensive proposal for pre-employment mine training that would be done in cooperation with a number of agencies in the industry, as well as proactively encouraging people in the communities to seek the opportunities to take advantage of that training program and to follow up employment with these new operations.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Ootes.

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Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

I want to refer back to the item I mentioned earlier, where these people initially took a course and they're looking for work. Is this an agency they could possibly touch base with to see what the potential for work may be?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

Yes, Madam Chair, I think that would be an ideal vehicle to use, because of the very large number of business partners that are involved and the tremendous amount of networking that's available through this society. I would certainly use them as a vehicle to find out what's happening with this group of people, why this program may not have been success, as well as perhaps opening up some job opportunities that they might not have otherwise been apprised of.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is with regard to the development impact zone, the $40,000. As of today, we're doing away with regional councils, we're doing away with regional directors, we're trying to be fair to everyone; but in this area, we're talking about one particular area where there still is a development impact zone group. As it sits fight now, there are other regions within the Territories --especially in the Fort Liard area, there's potential for mining development in the North Slave; there is also potential for oil and gas development in the Beaufort Sea, and also the Gwich'in settlement area -- to be fair to all the other groups, it seems like they're only allocating $40,000 to one particular interest group. Are there other resources for other groups to be able to acquire these resources, or is this limited to just one region which there have been development impact zone groups in the past? Over time, they have served their purpose and have moved on. You now have land claim organizations -- such as, in my region, the Inuvialuit, the Gwich'in Tribal Council; in the Sahtu you have land administration bodies such as the Fort Norman Ernie MacDonald Land Corporation, the Deline Land Corporation -- so there are institutions established where the oil companies have to go to get their information. But allowing a separate institute to basically act on its own without really taking in the interests of the landowners,

especially with regard to aboriginal claimant groups, there has to be a change of emphasis by this government that we no longer have special interest groups. If you're going to do something, do it for everybody, but don't just do it for one particular area.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. Perhaps I could respond. As I understand it, when there is no activity in certain areas such as in the Beaufort/Delta for some years, the DIZ society that was active in that area, has long since ceased. The only place there was some activity was in the Sahtu, with the Chevron joint venture some years ago. Over the last couple of years, there was renewed interest in doing exploration work. If there are other areas that are interested in setting up DIZ societies then, as a government, we're prepared to do business. If industry is prepared to do the same and the federal government, then we're back in business so to speak. There's no difficulty for us to support the formation of such groups as this.

I see DIZ societies, for instance, as very, very useful for communities, even for land claim organizations. They don't have to hire expensive consultants and lawyers to find information for them. These societies can provide, basically for free, what many agencies and communities now have to pay for. This is provided very inexpensively for this government, as well.

So I like them, and if there is a basis to set up DIZ societies in other communities and regions, I would be prepared to do that. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. That is exactly my point. Because they've had a society in place for a number of years when other areas did not have that opportunity, they have lost out on the opportunity to meet with the oil companies, to be able to lobby companies. Without having a basic arm to link them into the Calgary office or the Yellowknife office, who are we talking to? I have made several attempts over the last year to try and get a study done on oil and gas potential in the Mackenzie Delta region, and on a project which was done in the Sahtu with regard to looking at the potential of a seismic application to the companies in which it was done, through this society, because that was basically what they were there for. But because we do not have a DIZ society in the Mackenzie Delta, as you stated, we are losing out on that potential. Yet someone else, because they have the advantage of another region, is getting something.

So that's where my question comes back to: fairness. My question was that you say that you may be able to look at getting resources for other regions, but all that's in the budget is $40,000 for the one particular society. So it's a question of having the resources and the infrastructure in place to assist you to deal with the lobbying of the oil industry in Calgary; or, having someone identify potential resources in economic development programs to assist them in hiring consultants and things like that, Other regions weren't able to do that because they did not have the infrastructure in place, such as this DIZ society which basically has one person on staff and all he does is lobby for himself, phone the oil companies and basically keep his job in place because he has connections to Calgary which we do not have in the Beaufort-Delta region. We used to; we used to basically be able to have a direct line right to Calgary, but now we don't because the oil and gas took it all. We eliminated the DIZ society because there was no need for it. What I am saying is, how do you see finding resources out of $40,000 to assist the other regions.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, if the reason that people aren't taking advantage of opportunities is because DIZ societies don't exist in a certain region, as I said, if we get a proposal and suggestions of interest, we'll fund them even in the interim; if there is sufficient support from the communities of a region and industry to establish these societies, then we're in favour of it. I just said that I see them as very useful vehicles. But we also know that when oil companies are not interested, they're not interested. You could put all your land up for sale, parcels of land, but if they don't bid on them, there's no activity. Basically, some regions have been in that state for a long time. But getting back to the point that the Member makes, yes, it's only $40,000 that's allocated there, because that's all that has been there for some time. But we can reallocate, internally, money to provide for additional DIZ societies if that's what is required. It's more a matter of getting a proposal and responding to it, even in the interim.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Anything further, Mr. Krutko? Go ahead.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. Maybe the Minister or the deputy minister could tell me exactly how many other additional resources have been spent in association with this society for meetings in Calgary; lobbying the oil companies; looking at potential proposals for accessing funds through EDA or funds through Economic Development and Tourism; for consultants doing studies with regard to seismic proposals and things like that. Could you tell me how much money has been spent in association with this society, compared to the resources spent in other areas?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, I am not aware that any great amounts of money have been spent just for this one society. As I said, it's sponsored by this government in partnership with the federal government and industry, and this is almost the total allocation that's given for the operation of that society. There may be, on occasion, one or two plane tickets.

People should know, as well, if communities request assistance to meet with oil companies, we would look at it. But there are aboriginal groups who are basically carrying on a private business. They don't want us involved in their business discussions with oil companies, and it's none of our business. They are also in the business of hiring their own staff and accessing their own information. Nobody begrudges them that. I simply make a point that, in the case of the Sahtu, I know that this is a very efficient and simple way of getting basic information to communities, and you don't have to pay a lawyer or a consultant their high hourly fees in order to get basic information; it's available through agencies like this. If we can make them available to more regions, I would be very willing to do it. We could do it for Beaufort/Delta, North Slave, Deh Cho.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Krutko.

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. My question was, have the governments spent monies for consultants to do work on behalf of the Sahtu DIZ society over the last couple of years. I don't think you answered.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, if there was any money, gift money or whatever you want to call it, I would be interested in finding out about it myself. We could get it for the Member if that was the case.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions are again on the prospectors' assistance program. I would like to know if the grant is divided equally into regions so that all small communities have an opportunity to apply for the grant; or, is it all administered out of Yellowknife and could therefore be used up by Yellowknife before the communities get a chance?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Nicholls will answer.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

Madam Chair, the prospector grubstake grants will be available and will be advertised across the Territories to all regions. There may be some notification about that in newspapers this week and the applications are approved on the basis of the applications themselves and the content of the application. There isn't a regional allocation as such. The level of prospector interest varies a great deal form region to region. Right now, there is a tremendous interest from communities in the Keewatin in accessing prospectors' grubstake assistance, as an example. The primary areas of interest are in the Baffin, the Keewatin and the North Slave. There is no predetermined regional allocation. It is based on the applications that come forward across the Territories.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Madam Chair, I noticed the witness left out Paulatuk and Holman Island in the mining industry. I hope he keeps those communities in mind when he makes available this information. Who makes the decisions on the applications? Is it one or two members of the department? Who makes the decisions?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Kakfwi.

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Nicholls

Madam Chair, the decisions are made by members of my department, primarily the community minerals advisor, following the same procedures under which these decisions were made when this particular program was funded under the economic development agreement. It is based on the completeness of the application, the quality of the application. In most cases, when applications come forward and the information is there, the individual receives the assistance. The individual also receives follow-up assistance from the community minerals advisor, of a professional and technical nature, in the conduct of their prospecting program.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. Is the witness suggesting that anyone applying in my region would, therefore, have to apply to Yellowknife to his department and it is a deputy minister decision on which applications are approved?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

Thank you, Madam Chair. I do not see the applications myself. They are handled by technical staff. It is on the basis of the completeness of the application. We also work with economic development officers in the communities as our points of contact, so they don't have to come to Yellowknife. It is just that the staff are located in Yellowknife who handle this. We encourage people to put forward these applications, but it is important to note that, in order to be qualified, one must normally have completed a prospecting course. That is another element of our program; to provide prospector training through Arctic College, so the people have the necessary skills to actually do prospecting on the land. If there is an interest in communities in your region in having prospector training courses, this is probably a good opportunity because of some emerging activity in that area. That is something we would like to take a look at, so we can encourage people in that area to become engaged in prospecting on an ongoing basis.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Thank you, Madam Chair. I wonder what cost is associated with administering this program; administrative costs.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Nicholls.

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Nicholls

Madam Chair, the direct cost of administering the grants themselves is very minimal. It is a matter of a few weeks' work by a few individuals; more the

actual work that is involved is in terms of the time spent by our community minerals advisor and other people on staff in providing some assistance on an as-needed basis to prospectors. For example, if they wish to stake a claim and sometimes there are some technicalities that aren't properly followed through with, so staff are available to try to provide some assistance in conducting that. I would certainly emphasize that the administrative cost of this program is quite minimal.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Madam Chair, the comparison the Minister made of this program between grubstaking and trappers isn't a very good comparison. I say this because the chances of a trapper becoming a millionaire is pretty slim. One of these guys could easily strike it rich and be millionaires, but there is no incentive for them to pay their money back. I would suggest that the department consider making this a forgivable loan program. If one of these guys does make it, he should pay us back whatever we gave him. A grubstake is a grubstake. If you do good, you pay me back. In the future, we should look at changing this program to a forgivable loan, so there is some incentive for them to pay us back if they get rich.

How do we know the results of this? Did these people report as to how successful they were? I presume most of them say they never found anything so, therefore, they never have to pay it back. How do we get a report back?

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Steen. Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chair, I understand that the prospectors go out and check out certain areas. They report the exact locations of an area and they take ore samples and these are brought in as part of their reports. If anyone is interested in pursuing it, then they deal with the prospector on it. The findings of the prospectors are filed and made available. Potential buyers would look at them. That is how I understand it. I am not sure how we would get prospectors to pay back grubstakes, but we can look at it and see if there is any merit in it. We thought it would just encourage people to go out and do work who would ordinarily have difficulty doing it on their own. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Steen.

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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

We encourage our kids to pay back the loans we give them for education. I think it is only fair to encourage the prospectors to pay us back if they make money.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. O'Brien.

MR, O'BRIEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to throw my support behind this program. I think it is an excellent program and it benefits a lot of the small Inuit prospectors in my region, particularly in Arviat and Baker Lake. Without it, they wouldn't be able to survive. They wouldn't be able to do the prospecting that they do. I think Vince's comment isn't a bad idea. You can put that in as a qualifier, but I sure wouldn't want these guys being hounded or harassed to pay this money back unless they come into a big find, like Vince states. I don't see it happening. These guys are struggling trying to make their way along. Those are my comments. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. I not would like to limit the comments here, but remind the Members that we're fast approaching 6:00. If you would like to finish Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources today, just keep the time in mind. Mr. O'Brien, did you want a response from the Minister on your comment?

--- Interjection

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Picco, would you like to speak?

Motion To Extend Sitting Hours,

Carried

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Edward Picco Iqaluit

Madam Chair, I move that we extend the sitting hours to conclude consideration of this department.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. The motion is in order, it is not debatable. All those in favour of the motion? Opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Back to page 12, contributions, $265,000, total department, $265,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Detail of work performed on behalf of third parties, total department, $81,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Returning back to page 12-09, program summary, Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, operations and maintenance, total operations and maintenance, $5.217 million.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Capital, total capital, $25,000.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Under total expenditures, $5.242 million.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Does the committee agree that consideration of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources is concluded?

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Mr. Picco's motion was to extend the hours of sitting, but we have seven whole minutes left. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Steen.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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Vince Steen

Vince Steen Nunakput

Madam Chair, I move we report progress.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Steen is moving that we report progress. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. I will rise and report progress. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

I would like to call the House back to order. Item 21, report of Committee of the Whole. Madam Chair.

Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 361

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 11 and Committee Report 3-13(3) and, Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with. Thank you.

Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 361

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Seconder? Mr. Picco. All those in favour of the motion, please signify. Opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Item 22, third reading of bills. Mr. Arlooktoo.

Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 361

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, I request unanimous consent to return to Members' statements.

Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 21: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 361

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

The honourable Member for Baffin South is requesting unanimous consent to return back to item 3, Members' statements. Are there any nays? There are no nays, Mr. Arlooktoo.

Tribute To Mr. Brian Brown
Revert To Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 361

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to pay tribute to an individual from the community of Cape Dorset who, unfortunately, was killed last Sunday evening in an accident. Mr. Brian Brown has been a teacher in the Baffin region for over 10 years and made a deep impact on all those who worked with him, especially members of the communities where he served.

Mr. Brown was accidentally killed while returning from a Sunday evening hunting trip. He was following a snow machine that had a loaded gun strapped on to the sled. When the sled hit a bump, the gun discharged, hitting Mr. Brown and killing him instantly. Brian was only 44 years of age and had taught in Igloolik and Kimmiut before going to Cape Dorset as vice-principal and a senior high school teacher at Peter Pitseolak School. He is survived by his wife, Joanne, and his son, Brooke.

Mr. Speaker, Brian was much appreciated in Cape Dorset and will be sorely missed. He loved the North, and one of his greatest pleasures was being out on the land. The school in Cape Dorset is closed while the teachers, students and the community make plans to help themselves and students to deal with this tragedy. There will be a memorial service in Cape Dorset this coming Friday, and the funeral will be in Fogo Island, Newfoundland. This man was considered a friend, Mr. Speaker, and we will all miss this friend who gave so much to others. He will be missed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Tribute To Mr. Brian Brown
Revert To Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 361

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Arlooktoo. Item 23, orders of the day. Mr. Clerk, orders of the day.

Item 23: Orders Of The Day
Item 23: Orders Of The Day

Page 361

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, there will be a Caucus meeting at 6:00 p.m. this evening. At 9:00 a.m. tomorrow, there will be a meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations sub-committees And B.

Orders of the day for Wednesday, May 15, 1996:

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

6. Oral Questions

7. Written Questions

8. Returns to Written Questions

9. Replies to Opening Address

10. Petitions

11. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

12. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

13. Tabling of Documents

14. Notices of Motion

15. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills 16. Motions

17. First Reading of Bills

18. Second Reading of Bills

- Bill 13, Loan Authorization Act, 1996-97

19. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act

- Bill 11, Appropriation Act, 1996-97

- Committee Report 1-13(3), Standing Committee on

Government Operations Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates

- Committee Report 2-13(3), Standing Committee on Infrastructure Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates

- Committee Report 3-13(3), Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates

- Committee Report 4-13(3), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates

20. Report of Committee of the Whole

21. Third Reading of Bills

22. Orders of the Day

Item 23: Orders Of The Day
Item 23: Orders Of The Day

Page 362

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 15, 1996.