Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. To the motion. Mr. Picco.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the topic of the BIP was discussed in great detail within our committee, as we said in our Infrastructure report. We asked for the figures, the substantiation of said BIP contracts. However, if it is thrown out right now, my fear is that this government could be in legal implications because of the contracts being awarded under the policy, then other companies would come back and say what's happening.

We did recommend in our committee that it should be reviewed, it should be debated more fully in the Assembly. I think we need some more time to look at the facts and figures before we have a chance to move it today.

Thank you, Mr. Picco. To the motion. Mr. O'Brien.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We're all aware that the cost of doing business in the North is higher than in other areas in Canada. I've had dealings with the BIP over the last number of years and I know it's not a perfect arrangement. It's very frustrating at times and very time consuming. It's a nightmare for most of the business people trying to carry out the necessary paperwork to complete their jobs for payment. At this point, I would find it very difficult to get rid of this particular arrangement, until something was put in place that would be acceptable to all parties. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. To the motion. Mr. Ootes.

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Henry.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also was a little taken aback by the introduction of this motion today, as the Minister of Public Works and Services was. I will speak to the motion, regardless.

I think the Minister and other Members have made some inaccurate assumptions. The assumptions they have made is that business will go south. I believe, without a doubt, that that would not happen. Yes, there would be some, but it would not be a mass exodus of funds going south with the suspension. I would like to reiterate the word 'suspension" of this application.

I think suspension of it is extremely timely, if you consider that this program has been in place for approximately 20 years and, on numerous occasions, I have asked government officials and this government to produce some documentation to tell us what the BIP costs the government on a yearly basis. We have had figures from $30 million today. I saw figures presented to this committee, stating $22 million. I've heard discussions that it's not costing any more than $5 million. I would suggest that those inaccuracies show this is probably as good a time as any to suspend the policy which has been in place for so long, until we find out how much this is actually costing us and the benefits we're getting for it.

We sit here with documents in front of us, and I can inform anyone how much project management is costing us; we have the figures there. We can work out what the benefits are. Accommodation services ... It's all here. We know what the benefits are. So this is one program which we're spending a large amount of money on. If we take it at face value that this program is costing $30 million, suspending it for a year would take us a long way to balancing our budget for the next year.

In the saving of $30 million, there would also be an additional saving of $7 million the following year, which this government, if it does not balance the budget and, as it's proposing, runs an accumulated debt of $85 million; the following year, there's an additional $7 million in interest payments that this government is going to pay out and will not be able to contribute to services for people in the Northwest Territories.

I think we're all very well aware of the federal government debt they have. I have no doubt in my mind that when the government debt was at $1 million, there was no concern about it. When it got to $600 billion, now it's a concern. The federal government presently, and apparently for the last five years, has had an operating surplus. In other words, they brought in more revenue than they put out in goods and services for the benefit of the Canadian population. What's killing us is the interest we pay. We, by cancelling or suspending this program for a year, have the opportunity to not go down that same road and save $7 million in the following year, because we could potentially balance our budget this year.

Mr. Chairman, if I thought for one minute that the suspending of the business incentive policy would have serious detrimental effects to business in the North, I could not support it. I do not believe it would have detrimental effects. I believe that businesses in the North would sharpen pencils, get a little more creative and would keep the business in the North. I think that it is an insult to a mature business community to say that they need to be pampered and that they can't compete. The Department of Public Works and Services produced a document for us where it stated that, out of a number of products, a large percentage of them purchased by this government in a period of time -and I apologize; I don't have it here at hand -were actually cheaper in the Northwest Territories. So, again, I think that business community in the Northwest Territories is mature enough and can survive without this incentive policy.

So, the main point of a letter to the Premier from the NWT Chamber of Commerce, which represents businesses across the Northwest Territories -- and I might add that this government has made great praise that we're going to leave the job of helping this economy to northern business, but they choose to ignore a main recommendation that they make which states that: "However, in dealing with the government's current financial situation, it is the considered opinion of the board of directors of the NWT Chamber of Commerce that every effort should be made to present a balanced budget for the 1996-97 year. Dealing with accumulated debt would be done in the following two years."

Mr. Chairman, for a program that this government is spending $30 million on each year, by the government's own admission, I believe it would be appropriate to suspend this program until those statements can be verified and until we can get documentation to say what the benefits are to the Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Henry. To the principle of the motion. Mr. Steen, do you wish to have the final argument? To the motion.

Thank you. To the motion. Question ... Mr. Todd, sorry.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I just want to clarify: We are not balancing all of the budget on the backs of our employees. I want that clarified. I just want to make it clear to my honourable colleague that we are not balancing it. Thank you.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour of the motion, please signify in the usual manner. Down. Thank you. Against the motion, please signify. Thank you. The motion is defeated.

Back to the review of the Public Works and Services Department, project management. We are on page 7-10, Operations and maintenance, total operations and maintenance, $7.096 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Accommodation Services

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, that is part of the plan, that departments will start paying their share of rent costs or lease costs. It isn't being implemented now. On the part of the user-pay initiative, the part in place now is on telephone charges. The rent portion of that is down the road.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ootes.