Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next I have Mrs. Groenewegen, Member for Hay River. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased today that this very important subject has been moved into Committee of the Whole, so that we can take our time to address it and put our heads together, so to speak, to see what kinds of creative and progressive ideas that we can come up with.

It was suggested by someone in the House this week that perhaps all this attention on education was, in fact, due to some well-organized lobby effort and to that I want to respond that this is not the case. The concerns about education are coming from many sectors and it is certainly something that has been raised at the last two constituency meetings that I have had. This is not some artificially created crisis or concern that, in fact, the people out there are very much wanting the education of their children to be addressed.

When we talk about education, it is easy, when you look at the statistics, to become overwhelmed by it, maybe even a little bit depressed by it because of those pressures on the system that Mr. Ootes referred to that we seemingly do not have any control over. We do not have control over the number of students coming into the system. We do not have control seemingly over the things that are causing such a high proportion of our students to be in the special need's category.

I can tell you that as an MLA there is little that I have experienced to date that is more perplexing than having a parent come to me and say, my son or my daughter just needs to have some extra help or just needs and assessment for special needs, or just needs to go to a summer program to get some extra help in a certain area. We have no response to those kinds of things because it is always the same answer: There are no resources to address that. I must say that I have been very upset by not having answers readily available for people when they come to you and they are concerned about their children's education.

It is important, on the subject of special needs again, that we do have proper diagnosing of where the problems are. I believe that we need more ability to identify what the needs are so that we can address them effectively with programs and, well, just the most effective assistance that we can possibly offer. I think that kids sometimes go through school and they may not be functioning well, but we do not really know what the source or the cause of it is.

In Hay River, I do not know, seriously, what we would do in Hay River if it were not for volunteers in the school working with kids on a one-on-one basis. It is very extensive and I would say it is maybe even unique in the north that we have so many people in the community that are dedicated to this, but that is not the answer in the long-term, although we so greatly appreciate what they do. It is not something that is going to solve the problem in the long run.

The needs are very diverse across the territory, with respect to teachers and teacher housing. In some ways I think we have shot ourselves in the foot, so to speak, getting rid of all the housing as we did and then realizing that we do not have any place for people coming to the non-market communities where there is no affordable housing for them. I think that was a small price to pay to attract and keep teachers. I am disappointed that some teachers, in fact, at the end of this school term are leaving the north due to something as simple as something that we could have addressed and solved, I believe, something as basic as their need for adequate accommodation.

I do not know exactly what our mandated, legal obligation is to our students in the north. That is something I am going to be asking the Minister about later, because if we received the funding from Ottawa and it is unconditional, I do not know exactly where we can take the resources from.

We must have some responsibility to ensure a certain level of education for all students, not just the students that thrive and that do well and get through the system, but also to address the needs of those who do have special challenges. I think that if we, as a government, bury our heads so to speak, on this and do not deal with it, I think, that the burden and the fiscal costs are going to be really burdensome in the future. This is one of those things that if we do not address it effectively, as we are going along, that we are going to pay a much greater price in the end. I do not think that is good management or good for the people involved. I think we have to face up to the fact that we do have a challenge before us that the system is under a tremendous amount of strain and that we have to face it head on.

Mr. Chairman, that is all I want to say for right now and I will have a number of questions for the Minister at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Next, I will recognize Mr. Roland, Member for Inuvik.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we have heard a number of different areas of concern when it comes to education. We need to say, or at least, I think, we need to say to start with, that we have come a long way in the area of education. For example, when my parents were going to school before Inuvik was built, the higher education at that time was grade 3 and 4. That was average throughout the Delta communities. We have come a long way and there is still much to go.

I know there are opportunities to reach a higher education, as well, when you go through life and it is a matter of being committed to your cause. I think a challenge brings out the best in people, so hopefully that will bring out the best in us and we can come up with a solution that would try to deal with these problems.

As we heard earlier from Mr. Miltenberger about the education tax, I think that is an area we need to look at. The tax-based communities pay their portion of their tax for education. I am not sure of the comparisons. I know that because I live in a tax-based community, much of my tax money goes into education. This is something we need to look at throughout the whole of the territories. If we want to put more money into it, we should go back to the people and ask if they are willing to pay a little more so we can have more special need's assistance in the classroom. I think that is something we need to address.

In the area of education, it was mentioned earlier, but I will go a little further, is the quality of education. One of the concerns I have raised in the past is in the area of automatic passes. I have a concern with that. At some time we end up paying for that because that student who has gone along with his peers for a number of years, when it comes time to write the test that he has to write because it is mandatory, realizes he does not have the knowledge to succeed. How far do we expect that student to go from that point on? I think that needs to be looked at.

From my experience, when I went to school, it was divided into groups of people. Maybe there was some concern, maybe it was not the best way, but I found it to be productive. Maybe it is something we need to look at. Governments have been known to go back to the ways they delivered programs in the past. Maybe we can look at classroom settings. For example, when I went to school it was divided into five different groups: A, B, C, D and E; A being the one who achieved high.

If we are going to do something about this, as we heard earlier, then we should be prepared to make the necessary decisions to try and come up with solutions. I put out to the rest of the Members here, one of the solutions possible is to put a survey out to the residents of the territories and ask if they would be willing to put more into it. We might get an answer back which is not what we would like to hear.

For example, in Inuvik, the Inuvik District Education Authority has gone a long way to try and achieve the best balance with the money it receives in trying to provide proper programming and support for teachers. It is difficult with the population growing as fast as it is and with the problems related to the younger generation, there are concerns. Before we say, where to do we transfer money from one department to another, we need to try to find new money. As I have heard said in the past, you can educate people, but if you do not have jobs to put them into then what does that education count for at the end of the journey? It is something that we need to look at.

As well, I think that, as a government, we need to ask ourselves, what is the end result? Is it a number? Is it quality? What is the key point? We have shown the increase in students by going with the extended classes in the smaller communities, but we have also heard that by doing they need more teachers or more assistants because they are having to deal with a larger range of students in a class.

These are a number of areas that we need to look at, but I hope that, at the end of the day, we will be able to offer up somewhat of a solution. It is fine to say it is important. Education is a priority, which in the social programs we have stated many times that it is. We have asked for funding to be put into education, but if there are no new dollars there, where do we take it from? I am not in favour of moving funding around. We need to find new dollars. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I now recognize the Member for Natilikmiot, Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. I have two more on my list here, presently, Mr. Barnabas from High Arctic and Mr. Krutko from Mackenzie Delta, in that order. Mr. Barnabas.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, have a lot of concerns in regard to education and especially in the area where we see a very large increase in special needs students and cuts that have taken place, especially in regard to the teacher/student ratio. There has to be more emphasis put on the special needs concerns in communities, for example, in McPherson they calculate the special need's team that is there which supports and assists some 36 students from kindergarten to grade 10. I believe that is a high enough figure that there has to be additional resources put into those schools where they do see a real increase, especially in the number of special needs students. It is more than that. It comes down to the cuts that have taken place within this government in the last couple years in which, again, in the case of McPherson, they are looking at being cut one and a half positions 1998-99. It works out to some 9 and a half teacher positions for students from kindergarten to grade 12, which adds up to approximately 210 students. I believe that is inadequate in regard to the number of teachers and the number of student ratio in the classes that they have to commit to. There have been motions put forth from the Beaufort Delta Leaders' meetings which ask for an in-depth study and review of the old education system and the quality of education that is being delivered in the Inuvik region. Those motions have been passed time and time again. Yet, nothing has been done to look at the quality of education that we are delivering and also what are we setting our students up for in regard to grade 9 students whom we are finding through different tests that they have a grade 5 education. There has to be something done to not allow this to continue to set up students for failure when they move on to post secondary education or into the trades. We have to also find the resources within ourselves which are the biggest question that the government states, which is there is no more money. We have to find the resources now to deal with this problem and not allow it to continue to carry on to the position where we find ourselves. In the case of McPherson and Aklavik, the communities I represent there are a high turnover of teachers because of the stress that they find themselves under dealing with this additional problems in regard to special needs students and the cuts that have taken place in regard to a number of teacher/student ratios. There has to be more of an adequate way of assisting students, and especially the ones with special needs, to cope with the learning curve that they find themselves in because of their health or medical problems. We have to also address this in light of not only the education, but health as a health issue. There has to be more resources put into the health care field and assist the individual student who has a special need's problem and to work alongside with the special needs teachers, and the community to address this issue.

We cannot basically continue to say, well, we are going to give the teachers a little more training or allow them a few more courses on how to deal with special need's students. The problem with special needs in the classroom is effecting all students, not just the students that have a problem. It is effecting behavioural problems in the classrooms. It is effecting the day-to-day operation of students who get frustrated and basically drop out of school. We have to look at education as an overall concern and not just piecemeal it together. I still do support the Beaufort Delta leaders' motion to call for an in-depth review in regard to the quality of education that is presently being delivered to the Inuvik region. There also has to be more time spent to assist teachers coping with problems they have come across. In the case of a meeting that I held in McPherson with the education council along with the assistant Deputy Minister, Pauline Gordon, we heard of the number of problems that they see and that all comes back to the whole area of more resources and more dollars to assist in a community. The community has tried their utmost to try to find special needs teachers, tutors, and what not within the community through funds like pathways dollars that the government gives to the bands from Indian Affairs. Those funds are being used to hire tutors in the classroom, and income support money to find individuals who are willing to assist the teachers by filling in wherever possible. It has come to such a state now that it is a crisis and that we do have to deal with it. I do not believe we can use the excuse, we do not have any more money. We seem to find money whenever it comes to large projects, P3 Initiatives, we are able to find money in regard to diamond evaluation, sorting facilities, the purchase of some $50 million for diamonds. I do not know where the $50 million was going to come from, but I believe the Minister of Finance seemed to have ways of finding large pots of money whenever it is appropriate to do things. At this time I would like to ask the Minister of Finance what is being done to ensure that the major concern with a large teacher turnover in the Northwest Territories and also the problems that we find with the whole area of special needs in our communities are addressed and it is addressed effectively and efficiently and also as soon as possible. I do not believe we can allow ourselves to wait until next fall to deal with this problem because I believe with a number of turnovers and the number of teachers that are leaving, that we are going to have a bigger crisis next year when it comes to dealing with this problem all over again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak toward a few points here as well. My other colleagues have identified class sizes as a concern and I have that concern as well in my ridings. I also have the concern of school sizes. I understand that in the early 90s the number of students for the size of schools, the formula was increased to allow for more students for floor space in the school. This has created overcrowding in the schools and as a result there is problems that have been generated from this overcrowding which includes discipline. I am also concerned about the quality of education in the small community versus larger centres. By this I am referring mostly to the quality of high schools that is being offered in the smaller community versus the larger centres, mainly, in the area of home economics and shop work for the students. I believe that the same facilities are not available in

the small communities as they are in the larger ones. In the last two Assemblies there was a move to have high schools in the smaller communities rather than have them all centred in the larger centres. This apparently was in response to a call from the public to have high schools in the smaller centres. This, it seems, has resulted in a lesser quality of high school education and programs available to the students in the smaller communities. I am concerned about that and I wish that the Minister and his department would address this.

I am also concerned about the curriculums in the schools being offered at this point in time. By this I am referring mostly to whole language versus phonics. I understand this is a problem Canada-wide, as well as even in the States where whole language is being taught rather than the use of phonics. I have noticed even in my own children where they could not recognize words because of the use of whole language in the recent years. I was concerned about that for a number of years now where the ability to read is not there any more. But this problem is further put to a larger extent because apparently we now have teachers who are not trained to deliver phonics. They are only trained to deliver a whole language program. Apparently it is going to take a number of years, even if we adopted going back to the system of using phonics versus whole language, and it would take a number of years before we could again have students who have the ability to read and I am told that there is a very high percentage of overall Canadians who cannot read. Somewhere in the nature of 40 percent cannot read properly due to the use of whole languages in schools. I would like to ask the department if they plan to continue using whole languages or do they intend to use a combination of dual or just what the plan is?

I am concerned about adult education in the smaller communities and the availability of vocational training programs. I know that Mr. Erasmus and other Members in the Assembly spoke about there are not the opportunities available that should be available for vocational training. I am 100 percent a supporter of more vocational training for students who want to take other than high-level type jobs, like doctors and lawyers, that demand university training.

One of the concerns that became obvious to me just recently is that, for instance students going to school in my communities, all the material is supplied to them by the schools, but if they moved to larger centres like Yellowknife or Inuvik, these same students, their parents have to buy materials for them. This is a surprise both to the parents and to the students. We do not understand why that is. We assumed that as aboriginals we were guaranteed an education by the government through the land claims and through the treaties and we thought that as we received it free in the communities, it would be free wherever we went. I am surprised that if you move to a larger centre you have to buy your own materials for the students. The interesting part about it, it is not available in the schools. I know of children that go to the school, take mathematics, and they have no materials to take home to study. Whatever the material they were given they have to return that evening back to the school, they cannot take anything home because there are no books to take home. There is just the page given to them on a daily basis. I do not know if this is standard procedure in the larger centres but this is what is being experienced by some students whom I know. I do not know what it really means. It means the standards are different in the larger centres than it is in the smaller communities. Do we have a set standard? That is the question that has to be answered. Is there a set standard of education for everybody?

I think one of the major things we have to consider as the Legislative Assembly is, can we afford a high school in every small community? At what level of population do we stop and say, hey, it is not affordable to put a high school in this community. You are going to have to go to a larger centre. Is the policy of this government, for instance, is it the same policy for education, as it is for Municipal Affairs? With Municipal Affairs, the small communities get the same type of infrastructure as larger centres, but can we afford it? That is the whole question. Can we afford a high school in every community, or should we go back to the system of sending our children to a central high school? Many people in my communities say the old system, even though it had flaws, even though children were away from their parents, there were a number of good points to it in that discipline was better. Quality of education was better because children had more ability to rest and be ready for school the next day. Those types of points were being expressed in the smaller communities now. Mind you, you could say it is 50/50. Fifty people would like high school in the small communities, and fifty people would not. As a government we have to question this. We cannot find any more money for education. We have to look at whether we can cut down on the cost of the existing education system and still keep the standards or improve the standards. That is the question we have to answer, I believe. Mr. Miltenberger pointed out, putting the same money into doing a better job may be the way to go. That is what we have to look at as an Assembly.

Mr. Chairman, I pointed out a few points here and some of them are not popular. For instance, the idea of having central high schools rather than community high schools, but we have to raise one more question here why are aboriginal groups, at this point in time, requesting to take on education responsibilities themselves rather than this government? It must be related to the fact that they are not satisfied with the standard of education we are giving and they suggested they can do a better job. All those things have to be taken into consideration, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate the time to say these things. Thank you.