Merci, Madam la Presidente. Committee wishes to deal with Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates, Housing NWT. Mahsi.

Thank you. Does committee agree?

Thank you, committee. We will take a short recess and resume with the first item.

---SHORT RECESS

I now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we've agreed to consider Tabled Document 813-19(2), 2023-2024 Main Estimates. We will now consider the estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Please note we consider the main estimates. I will be referring -- while we will be considering the main estimates, I will be referring to the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation rather than Housing Northwest Territories as the name has not been legally changed.

Also, please remember that the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation is included in the main estimates as an information item and the totals are not voteable. We will review these estimates as we will for all other departments; however, we will not vote on the totals.

If Members have comments or questions, they can be raised at the appropriate time. Does the Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation have any opening remarks?

Yes, I do, Madam Chair.

Go ahead.

I am here to present the 2023-2024 Main Estimates for Housing NWT. Overall, the corporation's estimates propose an increase of $12.97 million over the 2022-2023 Main Estimates. These estimates support the mandate objectives for Housing NWT while continuing to meet the GNWT's fiscal objectives to prioritize responsible and strategic spending.

Highlights of these proposed main estimates include the following:

• $4 million on-going allocation from the Government of the Northwest Territories to increase funding for Housing NWT's homeownership programs for private households and provide incremental operating funding to support the delivery of 100 new public housing units for the territory;
• $121,000 of on-going forced growth funding from the Government of the Northwest Territories. This includes a $82,000 increase in funding for inflationary increases on contributions with local housing organizations and a $39,000 increase in funding for inflationary increases on contributions with third-party affordable housing providers being funded under the social housing agreement;
• $3.1 million one-time internally funded allocation for forced growth requirements related to utility rate increases;
• $3 million one-time initiative funding allocation for priority minor repairs for public housing units and replacement of public housing fuel tanks with federal funding support;
• $1.25 million of one-time initiative funding for additional investment in the community housing support initiative program with federal funding support;
• $500,000 of one-time Initiative funding to deliver additional maintenance management and accounting systems training for local housing organizations with federal funding support; and,
• An additional $900,000 increase to the annual amortization expense budget to recognize additional new housing assets being brought into service.

These estimates continue to support the priority of the 19th Legislative Assembly and a vision of Budget 2023 by:

• • Fostering strategic partnership, including those with federal and Indigenous governments, to increase the number of affordable homes and reduce core housing needs, especially for seniors and vulnerable persons;
  • Reduce the cost of power by investing in energy efficient solutions for both new construction and repairs; and,
  • Delivering increased opportunities for homeownership.

This concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. Mahsi.

Thank you, Minister. Do you wish to bring witnesses into the House?

Yes, I do. Thank you.

Thank you. Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber.

Minister, could you please introduce your witnesses.

Thank you, Madam Chair. To the left of me, I have Ms. Eleanor Young, president and CEO of Housing NWT. And vice-president Jim Martin, Housing NWT. Mahsi.

Thank you. Committee has agreed to forego general comments. Does committee agree to proceed to the detail contained in the tabled document?

Committee, we will defer the housing corporation summary on page 373 and review the estimates by activity summary, beginning with community housing services starting on page 377, with information items on page 378. Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I see that the housing corporation has 107 positions. Can I just get clarification whether that number includes the staff at LHOs and, if not, how many positions exist within LHOs. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The majority of our staff are with the local housing organizations and boards in the smaller communities. I don't have a percentage in front of me. I'll have Ms. Eleanor Young elaborate on the numbers. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. President Young.

Yes, I guess I'll start with a comment that it would be helpful -- I know that this is a finance template -- to include those positions. I know every time we go through this you get lots of questions about where jobs are in communities. And if any of these jobs move in the Housing Corp positions in the community, we talk about it but clearly the majority of staff are in LHOs. So I think some transparency there would be helpful for everyone. But I'll leave that as a comment.

My other question is I see under community housing services, there's $2 million approximately in property taxes and land leases. I guess I've expressed frustration at this before that I understand the housing corporation, being a corporation, pays its taxes and then MACA deals with that perhaps in a grant of lieu and then we pay lease fees to the Department of Lands. It just seems like this is $2 million that would be better not spent the government paying itself. Is there any efforts underway to reduce this payments for property taxes and land leases? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Presently we do hold leases with the Department of Lands as well, and we're working together to transfer those leases. I'll have President Young elaborate on the response. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. President Young.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you. Yeah, I think that would be helpful that we just -- it seems an odd thing that the housing corp is paying lease fees to lands.

Can someone just explain to me the property taxes here? Is the housing corporation -- my understanding is that no other GNWT assets pay property tax. Good thing we have a former team of MACA here. They essentially -- we take the value of our assets and we give a grant in lieu through that formula. But can I just clarify whether the housing corporation is not part of that and, in fact, just pays property taxes? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Eleanor speak about the property taxes and exemptions. Thank you, Madam Chair.

President Young.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

It seems like there should be some way for the housing corp to get that off their books and have it treated like all the other GNWT assets. You know, it just seems odd that we're paying ourselves tax. But I'll leave that as a comment.

I did have a couple questions about the scope of authority of LHOs. I guess I'll start with, do any of our LHOs own any assets, whether that be housing or the offices they work in or anything at all? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The local housing authorities act on our behalf through a service agreement. We own all assets. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you. And I'm wondering if LHOs have the ability to manage other people's assets? I know here in Yellowknife both the city has kind of made that ask of the Yellowknife Housing Authority as well as perhaps some non-profits, obviously for money, but is that something any of our LHOs do or are able do? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The local housing organizations are funded to provide services only for Housing NWT. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, thank you. Is that something we are considering revisiting? I know, for example, the City of Yellowknife just bought an apartment building and is looking for someone to manage it. You know, the Yellowknife Housing Authority already manages hundreds of units. It probably would not be that much of an incremental cost to them to manage another unit. Are we willing to let any LHOs explore the possibility of managing other people's assets? I'll note that argument probably goes just as well for Indigenous governments who are looking to build their open housing but probably don't want to get into the maintenance of it. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We will be looking at the service agreements, but I also want to just inform the Member as well too that we also do have a hundred unit roll out that is happening within the lifetime of this government, and we are also struggling to find the operation and maintenance for those units as well too. It's just the reality when administering low income public housing units and social programming. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you. And I guess in the same vein, I know the Yellowknife Housing Authority has tried to apply for funding and been told they cannot directly apply for funding or obtain federal funding or any sources of funding outside of the money they get through the housing corp. Is that something we are willing to revisit? Thank you.

Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Through the service agreement, they do act on our behalf. We apply for the federal funding and we provide those services to the local housing authorities. And just once again, just an example of the hundred unit roll out that has happened through the Northwest Territories, LHOs have been allocated some of those units. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, I guess I'm curious as to why that -- you know, I get that they're agencies but some of them are, in fact, registered nonprofit societies and fit under federal grant applications and most certainly would be able to go get money. And, you know, the money from the feds might be something as simple as some training for staff, energy retrofits, or building housing. It just seems having another group apply for money of their own initiatives has zero downside. I get we might want to keep a bit of an eye on making sure they're not just building assets with, you know, without the maintenance funding, but there's plenty of federal funding pools out there. I'm curious why we would not let local housing organizations go out and get it. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And just once again that this is a government arm -- I mean, an arm that supports the delivery of public housing units and through our service agreements, there are requirements that they do have to follow. We do meet with the local housing authorities should there be anything they may need additionally.

We've just went out just with our energy plan that has been tabled as well too, so looking at improvements for the local housing authorities, but they do act on our behalf. They are societies and associations, but they are an extended arm to offer programs and services on our behalf. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.

Yeah, you know, I've said this before, I'll say it again. Either they should be arm's length and set policies on who can get into rental housing, apply for money, take on assets, or let's take those staff, bring them into the housing corporation, make them public servants, you know, are transferrable, that we can keep a track of waitlists, maintenance lists. It just seems -- I don't see any benefit to this current approach. I am of the view that giving them more authority is the way to go if we actually want local control, but. Yeah, I will try and frame that as a question.

Going forward, are we revisiting this question of, you know, whether LHOs have the proper list of responsibilities and whether perhaps, you know, allowing them to have different localized policies to their communities is in fact something we would want? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the question coming forward, and I appreciate the Member asking about the local housing authorities because it could be quite complex but then I just want to mention with the strategic renewal that we are working towards those changes as well and recognizing them and also how can we improve those services a lot more better and offer these stronger programming.

I just want to just elaborate on one of my trips that I did take in to one of the communities, is that we were soon to discover that we need more funding for maintenance too, to address our public housing needs. But through those service agreements, those type of situations are addressed, and we are looking to work towards improvement. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Are there any further questions on community housing services? Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. On page 377, I think that's the page we're on, I'd like an explanation of why the heating fuel costs have gone up by two and a half, $3 million for 2023-2024? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. That's the fuel price increase. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks. I'm sure the Minister's going to guess my next question. Does the housing corporation pay the carbon tax, and what proportion of this increase is related to the carbon tax? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd have to get back to the Member. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Okay. Is there a timeframe for the Minister to get back to us, and can that information be made public? Look, I'm just looking for some kind of a ballpark figure. Is it 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 percent, something like that? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have that number available for the Member tomorrow. Thank you.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yeah, I'm not sure how else I can get the Minister to agree do this in a bit more timely fashion and make the information public, but if I don't get the information and it's not been made public I'll ask her on the floor of the House.

So the next line here, minor modernization and improvements, is going up by a little over $2 million. Can I get an explanation as to what the additional funding is for and what it's going to accomplish. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is for the replacement and the priority repairs for public housing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.

Okay, thanks. Does the Minister have any information that she can make public on wait times, by community, for public housing? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. The numbers do vary, and I just want to just express through one of my community visits that I did have, the wait time was between three and seven years. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Wow, three to seven years to get into public housing, that's pretty appalling. I don't know what to say.

I think this is part of the housing corporation that also helps people get into homeownership. One of the I think biggest barriers, or growing barriers for homeownership, is insurance. You know, look, I'll confess, I live in Yellowknife, my riding is in Yellowknife, but I, you know, had several constituents contact me over the last year about the difficulty of trying to get home insurance in Yellowknife let alone, you know, regional centres or the smaller communities. So what is NWT Housing Corporation doing about this problem, this barrier to homeownership? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. I think that goes under programs and district operation. This is LHO, public housing. But if the Minister has the answer, I'll...

Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. There has been conversations going back and forth with the Department of Finance to address the insurance issue. I don't have a solution for that, and I do understand that it is quite complex. I do come from a smaller community as well too, and to get home insurance is quite difficult. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Well, that seems to be one of the hottest potatoes here is this problem with home insurance. I raised it with the Department of Finance. I even made suggestions about looking at the Government of Saskatchewan insurance program because they actually provide insurance outside of Saskatchewan for homeowners in some of the provinces but nobody seems to want to actually do anything about this. And the reason I guess why I raised it is in the activity description, homeownership programs are mentioned here but I guess I'm not going to get any answers from the Minister on this either. Thanks, Madam Chair. That's it.

Thank you. Questions? Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I wanted to start off just in regards to a question that the MLA for Yellowknife North asked. It was in regards to operations and maintenance concerns for LHOs being able to purchase their own -- essentially enter into their own mortgages and source their own funding agreements to be able to really contribute to improving and increasing the housing landscape -- or the number of houses in the Northwest Territories and the number of homes. And one of the things that they do in BC through Indigenous Housing BC is they actually have the O and M of all of the units built into the mortgages. And they've had tremendous amount of success with this and so I just wanted to point to that solution there.

But one of the questions that I have in regards to community housing is the housing corporation is, thankfully, in the process of doing a government renewal right now, and that was in response to a motion that was put forward by this side of the House. And I have to say a huge thank you to the housing corporation because it was probably the motion that was most positively responded to in the lifetime of this Assembly and became an actual clear action item for the other side of the House. So kudos to housing corporation for taking that on. But my concern is that the roll out is supposed to happen on April 1st for this new suite of policies, and I'm wondering is there funding within this budget, and would it be within community housing services, to provide the training and communication material that not only LHOs will need but also the people of the Northwest Territories who use public housing services? They're going to need to understand how the rules and policies that govern their housing are changing and how they fit within that. And so I'm wondering -- I'll leave it at that. So is there funding for training within this budget for LHOs? Thank you.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We are funding those changes through our existing budget. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. So Madam Chair, I'm wondering why the housing corporation would not ask for more money to take that on when, from what it looks like from this side of the House, is housing corporation is already trying to stretch a budget, a very thin budget, farther than they can. And this House has been asking, since the beginning of the 19th Assembly, to please, please, please ask us for more money. We want to give more money to housing. Please, let us pay you. Let us on this side of the House say yes, we agree with the budget that's being asked for by housing corporation.

And so I have huge concern with the housing corporation stretching their existing dollars to pay for this training. And I guess my next question is will the housing corporation be producing resources for the people of the Northwest Territories to ensure that they are able to be connected to the services of the rest of the government? Because that's where this started from, was a need for the housing corporation to recognize its place in the social envelope departments of GNWT and to provide those connections to its residents that require other services from other government departments to make sure that they have a fair shot at establishing stable housing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to the Member for the question as well too. I really appreciate these comments coming forward as well. And I just wanted to mention that since the renewal, we were able to conduct workshops with the local housing authorities, the district offices, and the maintenance as well too, and identifying areas of improvement and training. I'll have Ms. Eleanor Young just elaborate on the response as well. Thank you.

Thank you. President Young.

Thank you. Member for Kam Lake. Are there any further questions on community housing services? Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. I'm wondering about your O and M costs. You were talking about it a bit there. There could be a lot in there; I'm not sure what's all entailed in there. I'm just wondering if the O and M costs, if the majority are having to pay utilities versus others. If you could answer that. Mahsi.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll have President Young respond. Thank you.

Thank you. President Young.

Thank you. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi for that. So I guess CMHC, when they put a deadline of the year 2038 to cut O and M funding, I guess they're looking at a business model in the sense that we're not generating any revenue to cover the costs for ourselves. So I see where CMHC is coming from there. But at the same time, we don't see Housing NWT as a business model but a social program. I'm wondering if you could just maybe elaborate on that. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to the Member for the question. I want to just respond to the operation and maintenance cost, that we do have several service agreements within Housing NWT as well and we do have to become very strategic when we're looking at generating income for the operation and maintenance and for the programming within housing. For an example, I just want to point out the almost completion of the RCMP units where we will be generating a little over a million annually that will go right back into public housing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi for that. Yes, you're not generating enough anyways in business and I always mention that we treat housing, in our communities anyways, as a social program because of the fiduciary responsibility of the federal government to First Nations to provide housing. And that's the premise that we go on. I realize that too as a private homeowner, I pay for my own fuel and now the cost has jumped from, you know, 1.90s previously, now it's over $2. I don't know, $2 and something per litre, so that's becoming significant. And it's going to, you know, only increase to your heating fuels. So I'm wondering if there's -- like, I can't believe myself too, when I see the federal government programs with your copayment ones and the rapid housing initiatives, Number 1, where they're just pumping them out really quickly, but at the same time they're not thinking about the greenhouse gas emissions through the use of fuels. That's really surprising that they'll throw out their programs yet not follow their own directives, you know, related to climate change as we should be ourselves. So, you know, I don't know why they don't incorporate, whether it's solar power or a wood pellet boiler system or different source of alternate energy into their designs and into their systems that they pump out. Even the housing corporation right now is pumping out units into the communities. I think I have -- I know I got a four-plex or singles units coming up. There's nothing in that regard there. We're looking at two more duplexes coming into our community. I don't see anything there. It doesn't seem like the corporation wants to help the whole government probably save on utility costs. And I'm wondering if there's any outlook in the near future to, you know, incorporating these designs and these initiatives into your new designs. Mahsi.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Prior to these units being delivered, there was significant changes being made and the design that was put forward are energy efficient designs as well. And we are looking at how can we further look at the cost savings right through building our units. And one of the other things that we have done as well too is with our unit delivery, we have taken part in a consultation throughout the Northwest Territories as well too, when building these units, when communities are going to be receiving a new unit be constructed, there is those conversations that do happen. They are a part of our design conversation as well too. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Yeah, I know that the Minister talks a lot like that, saying that yeah, they're incorporated, they're in this design, they're in that design. When they come to our communities, the units, we don't see that. And I say the price of diesel has gone over $2. I don't think it's ever -- may never come down the way things are going. Even my landlord, they just raised the rent for my place and I'm asking why are you -- you know, increasing the rent? And they state well, cost of living. That's the landlord. What about that little person that has to pay that rent? They have to deal with the cost of living too. And I've been trying to get housing corporation to really start an aggressive campaign and start looking at alternate energy sources because either way, you know, you take out 240-volt electric hot water heater and put 110-volt oil fire electric heater, you don't win either way because now you've gone to diesel. You're burning more diesel than anything. And housing corporation should start from all their offices in all the communities and start incorporating wood pellet boilers and start from there. And like I've always said, put a cluster into one. What is preventing housing corporation from doing such an initiative? Mahsi.

Thank you. Minister Chinna.

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I just wanted -- you know, right now the energy strategy is out for consultation. We do have it all over Facebook. We did put this in the newspaper as well too. So we do have the public to engage. And I think the consultation is for two weeks I want to say? I think we're supposed to be receiving that, I want to say back on the -- I think it closes on the 28th of February. And in looking at the energy strategy as well too, we are looking at the fuel tank replacements for all public housing units as well too and making sure that they're upgraded in their fuel efficiency and whatever. And also the biomass projects. I think we have -- I don't have the communities in front of me right now but there was about eight communities that were listed that received those energy savings initiatives. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Member for Deh Cho.

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Mahsi to the Minister for that. I don't think it's really getting to the crux of what I'm getting at, is to incorporate the systems into communities. Let's save our housing corporation from destroying the old public housing picture in the Northwest Territories by 2038. Let's try to help to extend that. Let's incorporate solar panels or electric hot water -- for hot water heating, whatever source we can get, and also incorporate wood pellet boiler systems which, so far, makes sense. They do. I'm telling you. I've done a unit and I've said it so many times. We've done one. When I worked as a project officer, we incorporated into our school in Fort Providence. It went from a 3000 a litre burning unit -- fuel burning unit to less than 500 litres per month after the installation of a wood pellet boiler system. And it's running full bore all the time. When you get 40 below, 35, 40 below --

-- Member, your time has expired.

Are there questions? Member for Monfwi.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Since we're on training and support workshops, I'm just looking at here, the 254, is that going to be enough money to make up for the years that -- from 2021-2022 we only had three? Like, is it -- because it lapsed and it's, like -- are we going to make up for it? Are we on the right page? 379?